Further Maths as third A level

[FirstDaysOfSpring]

Is this ok if you know you want to do a maths degree?

Maths
Further Maths
Physics

Yes. Fine for Oxford and Cambridge.

however, I recommend at least starting Y12 doing a fourth as most people do further maths as one of four. Consider Chemisry, computer science or economics, all of which would complement the above, or you could have a contrasting fourth. This gives you a switch option if physics isn’t fun. Further maths isn’t as much work as a whole a level for good mathematicians.

Do NOT start with just this three. Add another subject in so if Further Maths doesn’t work out then there is room to drop it. Cannot stress this enough!

Those three are fine for a maths degree.

Thank you!
Is the level of difficulty apparent from very start of Further Maths?
If DS found he didn’t like Further Maths would he be unlikely to be able to cope with a maths degree? Or do you ease into it more after A level maths?

These are probably difficult questions to answer without a crystal ball!

I think he’s been advised to start 4 so I’ll encourage him to do that.

Those 3 are fine for maths, physics and most engineering except chem. But I definitely concur with the other posters, start with 4. Some hit the ‘maths wall’ sooner than they might expect, some change their mind, and apart from that a bit more breadth is a good thing. My DD started with those plus CS, dropped after AS (pre reform) - what she did was useful to her. One of her peers started doing maths at Cambridge but decided in the first year it wasn’t the right choice - fortunately she’d done a language as well as those 3 subjects and was able to switch to MFL.

My DS who absolutely flew in maths at GCSEs absolutely hated further maths. Good job he started with four! It ended up destroying his love for maths, he got an A in the A level maths, and wants nothing more to do figures. Shame……

If he didn't like Further Maths it would be unusual to then want to do a maths degree!

Does the school do A-level maths first, then FM the next year? My school does them both as two full A-levels in Y12 and Y13, some drop it almost immediately, others struggle through Y12 and then drop it having taken the AS. It's usually clear fairly early on who is going to find it easy and who is going to find it more difficult.

Agree maths A level is a big step up and doesn’t always work out so 4th subject is needed. At DS school FM was only timetabled for half the time of other A levels and could only be done as 4th as it wasn’t considered an equal amount of work. Art / design + maths also options for engineering or architecture. Or computer science.

The other thing that I’d add (to support comments re starting with 4) is that my DS found physics a breeze at GCSE and has loathed it at A level. If you start with three, there’s no scope to drop any ones that turn out to be a disappointment in this way!

DS1 is planning on Maths Physics and Computer Science plus starting Further Maths and seeing how it goes - I got the impression that his school just squeeze Further Maths into the same time slot as Maths and kids either cope or drop
it . Does that sound at all realistic do people think ?

I got the impression that his school just squeeze Further Maths into the same time slot as Maths and kids either cope or drop it

Are you sure? That sounds absolutely batshit, there is so much content to get through. Do they only accept kids who have a 9 at GCSE?

DS 2 is doing those 3 A levels (all at AS level
in year 12) as well as Welsh Bacc. He’s really enjoying all 4 courses and will be applying for Maths / Financial Maths degrees.

There's a certain amount of overlap between those 3 subjects (vectors and mechanics overlaps physics) and it is very much all eggs in 1 basket. If you're going to cope with a maths degree, that should be the equivalent workload of 2-2.5 A-Levels rather than 3 unrelated subjects.

I'm old but found the workload of Maths, Physics and French (didn't fancy further maths at that point and suspect would have found the wall in further pure) plus another language GCSE ab initio much easier than GCSE.

This wasn't my original plan - had initially (Nov of Y11) been planning French German Geography and English Lit A-Levels before a rather large swerve after GCSE (and not because of grades - I got A* in everything except English Lit and Music and A in those 2) so I was a bit constrained by timetabling...

Further Maths was definitely it's own block though, although GCSE top sets did triple in the time of double plus a couple of lunchtime lessons.

That’s what happened in the last school I worked in. 5 50 minute periods a week for Maths and F Maths, taught in a separate group from the A level groups so they went twice as fast.

I think FM got two extra lessons per week in the U6.

It was before number grades: I don’t know if they accepted Bs or if it had to be A or A star in GCSE Maths.

DD's college insist they start with 4 A-levels if one is further maths as apparently they get a high drop out rate and a lot just end up doing AS instead of completing it.

Could another way of looking at it be that it would be better to fully commit to Further Maths from the start?

If you are supposed to do an equal amount of work outside lessons then it’s easier to manage that for 3 subjects than 4. If you fully committed to getting your grips with Further Maths from the outset would that be better than thinking you might or might not carry on with it?

I think doing it consequentially is normal - A level first, in the first couple of terms, seperately to those just doing maths. Then onto FM, because that builds on the regular A level. DS did that (he did maths, FM, biology and physics)
What's less normal I think is to not allocate more hours to maths for those doing both.

As someone with Further Maths - I’d suggest starting with a broader range than that.

A level and degree maths is different to gcse maths - and if he doesn’t like it he’s massively limited with his options.

Do something in addition for the first year that he enjoys.

Honestly, no. Because there are people who are firmly committed to getting to grips with Further Maths who are not really suited to it and because they can't drop it as are only on 3 end up with a poor grade that affects their uni choices.

I've also seen a fully committed student who wouldn't be told that they needed a 4th end up realising that they'd made a terrible mistake when they got poor grades at the end of Y12 and ended up having to restart Y12 with different subjects as that was their only option.

DS did Maths, Physics and Further Maths 'A' Levels knowing he wanted to study Electronic Engineering at Uni. His school (v competitive boys Grammar) encouraged all doing Further Maths to take a 4th subject. We initially thought this was in case the Further Maths proved too challenging. After 2 terms of Further Maths going swimmingly, and the tacked-on 4th subject (Business Studies) failing to capture his interest, he requested to drop it and we had a devil of a job getting the school to agree - mainly it transpired because it's better for their stats to have pupils capable of achieving good results in 4 A levels to take 4 A levels. After much wrangling and debate, and us practically having to insist he was allowed to focus solely on Maths, F Maths and Physics - he had offers from all 5 of his UCAS applications for Engineering with no questions asked about his A Level choices, and completed MEng at York where the Further Maths was hugely beneficial. Be wary of the motives of schools in giving subject-choice advice if it's possibly in their interest rather than your DCs.

Be wary of the motives of schools in giving subject-choice advice if it's possibly in their interest rather than your DCs.

In my school's case it is absolutely in the interest of the students to start with 4! We've had students who thought they knew better and it hasn't always ended well.

Is your DS wanting to get into oxbridge? (Reguardless of if he does or not ) I’d say these are good ALevels to have.
My Dc did maths/ physics/ chemistry and further maths. Dropped further maths after a year and did 3 a levels and an epq. Everything is doable depends where he wants to go.

I’m currently tutoring a student, new to the school in y12, who started with Maths, F Maths and Physics. She really wasn’t coping with F Maths but fortunately she lived in a European country until leaving primary school, so has picked up the MFL from that country instead.

Most students won’t have that option, so I strongly support the idea of starting with 4 A levels if one is FM.

@NumberTheoryIsTheQueenOfMathematics nice username, but I think you’ll find that combinatorics is the empress of mathematics, and set theory the goddess

Back to the OP’s question If DS found he didn’t like Further Maths would he be unlikely to be able to cope with a maths degree?

I think it depends on how it’s taught, that is on how many lessons per week. If he doesn’t like it because it’s going too fast, on the same lesson allocation as he’d have for single Maths, and he’s getting lost, then there’s an argument that he might be OK with a Maths degree - but not at Oxford or Cambridge.

However, if he doesn’t like the work in itself, then he probably wouldn’t enjoy a Maths degree. In my opinion.

Dd is doing maths, FM and eco. She started off with geography but dropped it at Christmas. She loved human geography but hated physical geography. She is planning to do eco at uni. I worry she has limited her subject choice some what. She is in y12. My y13 has done the opposite doing 4 completely unrelated a levels and an epq. From the sublime to the ridiculous!