Further Maths as third A level

[FirstDaysOfSpring]

Is this ok if you know you want to do a maths degree?

Maths
Further Maths
Physics

If he doesn't like Futher Maths why on earth would be want to do a Mathematics degree

My neighbour’s DS did M,P and FM. Read maths at Exeter. No 4th subject. Often a 4th isn’t asked for and it’s not necessary at all. For maths, it’s grades at maths. FM is better for maths students. No uni normally offers a place based on 4 A levels. Those who consider economics or engineering might benefit from 4 including FM but universities will tell you if FM is not considered as a 3rd A level. So check what each course says about which A levels, how many and step tests. Many don’t ask for step at all.

Relative of mine has an offer for Cambridge (trinity) for maths. He’s having to teach himself FM at A level as the school said they couldn’t fit it in the timetable! One thing he did to help with his application was the maths Olympiad

My daughter is fuming that to do higher maths, she has to do Maths! So she's now thinking about just doing maths as she wants to do physics, Spanish and economics.

He must be impressively good if he’s self teaching and got a trinity offer!

Total maths genius. School have had him in sixth form maths classes since Year 7. 😁

Getting an offer from Cambridge for maths is not that hard, because the STEP paper is the thing that separates the wheat from the chaff with around 50% failing to get the required grade. The interview does not assume FM knowledge
My DS studied maths at Cambridge having never got through to the next round of maths challenge. They don't care about that stuff!

This is all really interesting- thanks all.

DD is going for maths, further maths and physics too for September.

Both sixth forms she looked at strongly discouraged her from starting with 4 A-levels.
One is a STEM college where they do A-level maths in one year and then further maths the second year.
The other is the sixth form at her current school where they do both concurrently.

Perhaps we need to revisit that conversation… both said that she could do 4 if that’s what she really wanted, but also made it quite clear that they wouldn’t advise it.

In my case, I found that Further Maths went from being fairly easy to impossible about half way through. It was like I’d hit the limit of my conceptual ability and from then on had to just memorise things.

I’d advise taking four A-levels.

@CrochetMadRosie It might be worth asking the sixth form (where you/your DD are already known) whether they can provide figures showing number of students each year, for the last three years, starting with FM as a third subject and the drop out rate amongst that group. It will also lead to a discussion about what your DDs options would be, say at the end of Y12, if FM does not work out. The risk is all with the student, not the institution, as they are left high and dry with just 2 A Levels and a less straightforward subsequent path.

The big traps for the unwary, as I see it (as a parent, not a teacher), is that the 'mathematically gifted coasters' arrive in Y12 FM with no real experience of having to graft, practise and consolidate; coming towards the bottom in tests is a new experience and is too much for some, who crash and burn. My DC were the tortoises in their FM sets and there were a fair few hares who did not make it to the end of the race.

The other potential trap, as @evelynevelyn points out, is not realising that A level FM is a very different beast to GCSE Maths. A lot of it is about concepts, logic and pattern spotting; it is not 'more arithmetic'. For one of my DC, the more abstract FM became, the better their relative performance. For the other DC, Pure Maths was not as enjoyable but they were a fiend at Further Statistics and that saved the day. Both did M and FM concurrently, with FM as a fourth; this was a much better way for them to 'grow into' their FM, neither having made it to the top Maths sets in their comp in the lead up to GCSE.

@PerpetualOptimistThank you! That’s a good idea to ask about drop out rates.
Her maths teachers have assured her and us that she will love the challenge of further maths, but you never know!

She loves the problem solving/
seeing patterns side of maths and likes a challenge. She decided she wanted to complete everything on the homework MathsWatch thing they have so did that just because she enjoyed it…

She either wants to go in to engineering or really would like to go on and do maths at uni as she just loves it. She finds random maths things to do as a break from other revision for GCSEs.

We’ll definitely revisit the conversation with her and sixth forms though, so I’m glad this thread was started and grateful for everyone’s input!

Thinking about this, seems to me that in general, kids who are good enough at maths that doing 3 A levels inc FM isn’t risky probably won’t it an onerous a workload and so should be allowed to do 4 for breadth and keeping more options open.
And the ones who turn out to struggle with FM really need to have started that extra subject.

which makes me think that colleges who discourage starting 4 are concerned a bit more about timetabling and budgetary constraints rather than what’s in the students best interests.

My DS did maths, FM , physics , economics and found it fine.

I'm finding this talk of colleges making students doing Further Maths start with 3 alarming!

I really wish that Gove hadn't decoupled the AS and starting with 4 was still the norm. It's helpful for those taking Maths A-level too, to have the option to drop if it goes badly.

Agreed @ErrolTheDragon. I think the other aspect to consider is the 'concurrent vs sequential' approach to teaching M/FM.

Someone very able may suit and prefer the sequential approach but there are risks, particularly if Maths A-level is taken at the end of Y12. The Maths A-level has to be taught in two terms and you may 'undershoot' and get, say, a high A but not a hoped for Astar; you also do not have much exposure to Further Maths until Y13, only then to find perhaps you have hit your ceiling.

In addition, some institutions appear to adopt a 'brute force' approach with high barriers to entry and then early exposure to harder concepts, at pace, to force out those who might simply need time to adjust to FM in the autumn of Y12. This is not always in the student's interests even if 'simplifying' for the institution.

Looking at the results of A level FM at my local single sex non super-selective grammars, the girls school have 65% getting A star and 85% Astar and A. No one got below a B. 50% A star, 70% Astar and A at the boys school. 50% more boys took the subject there though. I tend to think dc know where they stand at maths. The candidates definitely self-select to take FM and my guess is they have awareness of their ability and so does the school. It’s not a subject to be taken lightly but good teachers will know if DD is an able candidate. For both schools FM results are in top 3 for their A level stats.

If it’s a punt, I’d definitely do 4. If DD excels at maths - and don’t we all know a dc is one of the best at maths - it’s a subject where results are very high and I think that’s borne out nationally.

What we do not know is the FM drop out rate nationally or by institution; but I suspect it is very high for FM so the A level results are strongly influenced by survivorship and initial take-up bias. The DC being discussed in this thread may be very strong and very confident students and FM as a third subject may not be a risk for them.

However, policies that say FM should be taken as a third, or that preclude it being taken if you do not have 9 at GCSE Maths and/or FM GCSE, or must be taken sequentially with Maths A-level, or can only be taken with a narrow range of other STEM options, or institutions who adopt a brute force shake-out in the first term, will most likely put off those who are less self-confident about their mathematical ability and/or who have an interest in non-STEM as well as STEM subjects; this may well pose an unintended bias against girls vs boys taking FM and that, at a societal level, is not a good thing and, at the individual level, could result in a self-limiting of academic options.

My DCs found there was a mismatch between those who thought they were a dead cert for FM (more boys than girls) and those who lasted the course; so policies that discourage those who, in Y11, are less confident or who have more eclectic subject interests need to be avoided in my view.

My life would have been so much better, and probably happier(!) if I'd been able to do further maths and not chemistry. As it was, I struggled with chemistry, spent all my time working on it to the detriment of maths and physics, and still got a mediocre grade in it

@PerpetualOptimist Or we could accept that even in a girls grammar, fewer girls take maths and FM. They have had every chance to evaluate their own performance and receive guidance and I don’t think pupils at great schools drop out much. They don’t start in the first place. Lots of university courses don’t require FM and success at work doesn’t necessarily depend on it either. I think the best mathematicians know they are! As do linguists and musicians. I looked at a large 6th form college in Hampshire as well as I know a FM teacher there. They prefer 8 or 9 at GCSE. I think most decent 6th forms would counsel against taking FM for less than excellent mathematicians, hence great results.

If he’s bright enough to be considering these then he should be able to/wanting to do 4. But my kids did 3 with AS further maths and that was a very good compromise. Is that an option? Might be better than the 3 you mentioned.

The three A levels mentioned are perfect for maths and engineering. No one needs more. However if dc wants economics, a 4th is advisable. Dc will be banking on their skills are good enough snd not hedging their bets. Ultimately no one will care if they have 3 or 4. Unis don’t ask for 4 (mostly!). What they do like is high grades in the 3 subjects taken. There’s always an epq.

Apologies for being late to this very interesting thread, and thanks to @PerpetualOptimist for raising important questions around the best way to teach FM and its drop out rates. The competing claims are delicate, but as a former STEM admissions tutor I am always for having a good fallback. I have heard many, many stories from our applicants about how FM can go wrong in Y13.

The lower rate of FM participation amongst girls is a barrier to STEM education in the most elite programmes. When girls are genuinely more talented and interested in other things this is fine, but when they lose out on high paying careers that might suit them well because of external or internal biases it is not.

I was motivated to write because STEP and TMUA are mentioned upthread. They are becoming more widely used, especially for Maths admissions, as the A star grade becomes less of a discriminator. Several institutions offer a choice between them and the TMUA is significantly easier!

As PP said, STEP is run by Cambridge Maths who set the grade boundaries nationwide. They do this to control their intake, accepting only about 50% of offer holders.

This is of course their perfect right; my concern is that it is not widely known. Candidates from schools with a Cambridge tradition get substantial tuition whilst many others are like lambs to the slaughter.

TBF Cambridge warns them thar although STEP covers the material from their curriculum the problems are more challenging and the Cambridge STEP website provides good (free) resources. So do others. The free materials at the Advanced Mathematics Support Programme, are very good, and they run revisions at a low fee.

If your DC has Cambridge Maths ambitions, they should optimally start looking at STEP over the Christmas holidays in Y12 (when they may understand statements of a couple of the problems, at least). All DC but particularly girls need to know that success is a combination of talent and effort. The level at Cambridge Maths is very high, but there are few geniuses like the lad above.

The free materials at the Advanced Mathematics Support Programme, are very good, and they run revisions at a low fee.

The Labour government just cut government funding for this programme.

The university entrance exam tuition programme will now be provided directly by MEI.

https://mei.org.uk/students/university-admission-tests/preparing-for-university-admissions-tests/

Thank you, @noblegiraffe .

(This was from 1 April)

I’ve just been to the MEI university admissions test website. STEP is mentioned only at the top. The focus is purely on the other admissions tests. In fact, they fail to mention that Warwick and Durham will be accepting STEP for 2026 in a slightly disingenuous statement.

There is a general skills workshop coming up but nothing differentiated on offer. Selecting Resources for Students turned up only a recommendation to purchase a Hachette revisions book. Every attempt to get written materials or video on a topic was a dead end.

Most unimpressed.

Blame the government! Everyone was caught on the hop and it's only through charity that there's going to be any support at all.

I do hope it all gets sorted in time for my Y12 Further Maths students.