3 or 4 A levels for Maths & Computer science degree - Quandry

[vaux777]

DC wants to do a degree in Maths and computer science. Will be in year 12 this September. Has had all 9’s in Maths, computer science, Physics for GCSE.
He has taken 4 A levels Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Computer science.

Would be aiming for Imperial, Oxford, Warwick besides the other top universities. Conscious that GCSE to A levels is quite a step up. He’s now wondering whether he should drop to 3 A levels ( Maths, further maths, Physics?) and focus on getting top grades in 3 A levels rather than taking all 4.

Think he’s a bit worried if that 4th A level may pull his grades down and he loses out getting an offer at top universities on account of this. Besides, if applying to Imperial, Oxford etc he would also need to prepare for the entrance test which he would need to sit in October of yr 13. So think he’s rather worried if it would be able to manage getting the grades taking 4 A levels with all this. Say taking all 4 A levels, he ends up with say AAAB then he would not make say imperial or other top universities.

The school start with Maths in year 12 and then do further maths in year 13. Have seen that Maths and further maths is definitely needed for a Maths and Computer Science degree so he was thinking he would probably have to drop Physics / computer science.

Any thoughts? Has anyone’s child at top universities got in with only 3 A levels for doing a maths and computer science course? Also, which between physics /computer science would be better to drop, if he does decide to drop?

Thanks.

Ostensibly they say you don't need the 4th A level (some schools don't offer FM) but it's worth looking on the Oxbridge and IC websites (or the new function on UCAS) where you can see what subjects, grades successful candidates have and what the applicant to offer ratio is. I would say Maths, FM and Physics is a good combo with CS to AS level maybe if the school does this?

I'm sure you're aware that CS is one of the, if not the, most competitive course at top uni's. Maths is not far behind. Many candidates will offer 4 x A star plus very good entrance test results and still not receive an offer. It's pot luck for Oxbridge and IC. If your dc has fantastic supra curricular and has practised the entrance test then I'd say go for it with either 3 or 4 A levels. Just make sure his other offers are achievable.

DS1 is doing those a levels and is about to start yr13. He was planning to do computer science at uni but has decided on a different course now.

As per a PP, have a look at the unis you are interested in. They cannot insist on further maths as not every school offers it, but it can be a rare candidate who doesn’t have FM for certain courses at certain unis.

Can't he do four in year 12 and then drop one in year 13?

Add to say that the predicted grades needed for Warwick in these subjects is also very high so you are taking a risk putting 3 out of 5 of your choices on very competitive courses. They usually advise to put two aspirational, two achievable and one dead cert.

Ds1 also did those A levels and went on to uni to study computer science at a top uni. He also had grade 9s in maths, computer science and physics, mainly 9s across the board and some 8s, nothing less.

He found the transition easy, the key was he used his free periods as a study session with his other friends also aiming toward top unis and if they needed any help they asked the teacher. Successful students will go back over something they got wrong at a later date to ensure they now get it right, Maths is all about practise. Any end of topic questions anyone got wrong would be walked through in class and corrected and later they could resit that paper and see if they now got it all right.

In terms of competing against other applicants to uni if he is aiming for the likes of Oxford, Imperial, Warwick then they will have entry grades or higher. Ds was predicted 4 A stars and got 4 A stars because he knew it was important and worked at it. As a statistic less than 5% of A level students take 4 or more and around half of those are taking further maths, he wants to be in that category.

It is only end of year 12 where they give them their predicted grades, as I said if he isn't performing as well as he should within the first few months he needs to look at how to improve that and that is what his teachers are for. At Dc's sixth form staff were available every day at the end of the day to help any student who wanted it. If he wants to go to a top uni, then put the work in. Ds1 found it really easy as he loves maths so although I am saying work at it, it didn't take up much of his time outside of college.

Ds2 has just completed 4 A levels, again maths, further maths and computer science in there and they had 1 day at home for independent study, meaning all his free periods took place on one day. He therefore had 6 hours minimum to complete his work plus a 90 minute slot in school time too.

This is about resilience too, he needs to learn not to be daunted by something which hasn't happened, if he gets knocked down, he gets up, he moves forward, he learns from it. He is going into this with a load of 9s some are coming in with 7s for maths, as noble has posted a thread on maths, those coming in on lower grades will struggle more for maths. Those are potentially the ones dropping the further maths element to concentrate on just maths.

Can you think of it as doing 3 a year. Maths, Physics and CS in Yr12 culminating in taking the Maths A'Level. Then FM, Physics and CS in Yr13. He will have completed all his Maths A'Level before he needs to start preparing for the MAT.

My DD got good GCSE's but this was 2020 so CAG's. She did the same subjects as your DS for AL but Maths and FM were time-tabled together so did all 4 in Yr13 as well as the MAT and Oxford interviews.

Definitely do-able if you're good at maths due to all the overlaps. My DD would have the terrors at the thought of reading poetry or writing an essay

I have a dc at Imperial and almost all students have taken at least 4 A levels. This is especially the case if the subjects include Maths, Further Maths & Physics as there is so much overlap!

Unis have to take account that some schools don't offer Further Maths. That's why they can't require it. But if your school offers it, they'd expect you to have taken it.

He’s now wondering whether he should drop to 3 A levels ( Maths, further maths, Physics?) and focus on getting top grades in 3 A levels rather than taking all 4.

There will be lots of applicants that have taken 4 or even 5 A levels and achieved A stars. The top Unis get high achieving pupils from all over the world.

How though, if his school does the maths in yr 12/fm in yr 13 thing, presumably each with about 2x normal teaching time?

If there was an alternative good sixth form which did the maths and fm concurrently then he could easily start 4 and see how they were all going before deciding which, if any, to drop. That's what my dd did - though pre reform so she was able to drop the CS after AS and continue with 2xmaths and physics to maximise chance of top grades (that was for Cambridge engineering not CS ...a somewhat different equation there)

My DC who is at Imperial doing CS did x4 A levels (inc Maths & FM) and also had to do a STEP exam at the same time as A levels. Most of his UK based colleagues were similar.

@vaux777 We've been having very similar conversations about whether to start 4 A levels at one school (4the being FM) or focus on 3 at another (maths, FMs and physics). There does not appear to be a simple answer but on one hand I worry that spreading yourself across 4 would be tough, but 3 which includes maths and further maths is really narrow and what if my son doesn't like/struggles with FM.

Would your son take the maths a level in year 12? Do you know whether this causes any problems as it's not been taken at the same time as all the others?

I would stick with FM. DC1 has just finished Chemistry at ImepriaL. They always remarked about how challenging the maths was and how far ahead all the (very many) foreign students were in maths (DC1 studied chem, bio, physics and maths at A Level)

They can insist upon it if you go to a school that does offer it though.

If the school offer FM then he'll have to do that alongside maths and 2 other subjects if he wants to get into those universities

So check their admissions because they change every year

He'll probably have to take TMUA or step

Not sure if they're continuing with the MAT

CS was very very competitive this year and loads of applicants so students predicted 4 A stars were being rejected due to high numbers

@vaux777 Warwick only consider 3 A levels for CS. They want 2xAstsrA. They highly recommend FM. They know not all schools offer it but it’s still highly recommended. The steer is clear - take 3. One should be FM, they wants mathematicians!

I would add doing M and FM for 2 years is better. Or starting with 4 and reducing to three in y13.

You also want to consider whether he wants to start a course at Uni where the vast majority of students have FM and he doesn't. It will be a challenging first year to catch up. At Imperial/Oxford/Warwick almost everyone will have FM.

It does look like though that for Oxford and imperial at least he'll just need maths FM and one other subject so if he wants to drop one then it may be ok. I'd call the unis though to be sure. That's for CS

However if he wants you to do a Maths degree he'll need 4 for those unis

Does the school offer maths year 12 and then fmaths year 13? They build on each other so it used to be common to do 4 Alevels if maths and fmaths were two of them as they just timetables two subjects but you completed each in one year not two.

I didn't think there were any courses which state they have a requirement of 4 A levels, I just looked at the requirements for Oxford maths it's 2A stars and an A.

There are a few (cambridge...does anywhere else?) which may make an offer including all 4 if four are taken, but students who've only done 3 can get an offer too. It may be that most of the offers go to students who've done 4 ... but whether that's merely because they've done 4, or more that the ones who've done 4 also tend to be the ones who do well in the entrance tests and interviews is unclear.

In this scenario, you should always start with four.

If that is too much, he will have an opportunity to drop one at a later stage. The one he chooses to drop at a later stage might not necessarily be the one he wouldn’t choose to do now. Doing four to start is therefore maintaining more options for longer.

For many able students doing double maths, doing two other subjects on top is very doable. You just need to be organised and motivated and able. The skills that he will develop having to manage four A-levels will stand him in excellent stead if he ends up doing STEM at a top end university. Doing four is therefore excellent preparation.

@ErrolTheDragon

Imperial does if you bother to look

And less of the idiotic confused emoji

As does Warwick but it drops one if you do well in the MAT or TMUA