A level choices - too weak?

[dinomirror]

Dd has chosen History, Politics and Economics. She is predicted mainly 8s (school doesn't predict 9s). Lots of people have been a tiny bit shocked when told choices and there seems to be an underlying feeling that they aren't 'hard' enough for her(especially politics) although i know history is a content filled subject . Should she change?

PP never said anything about 'rights'?
Rather a lot of professions which now require degrees , don't necessarily pay more than non-degree paths or seem to need degree skills. And what benefit has this brought to the entrants?

Although the degree is useful with the hordes of nurses career changing.

'Degree' here is a red herring IMO.
Firstly, a degree ,full-time university and higher education are 3 different things.
You don't need to go to university full-time to get a degree.
Also, there are many degrees level professional qualifications (NVQ Level 6 and above) which are equivalent. Like the full ACA accounting qualification.

People used to work their way up through qualifications and get their degree paid for by the employer while working. Degree apprenticeships exist now but it's usually for a specialised Master's.

I believe that anybody who wants to go to university full-time should be able to , self-funded or otherwise. However, I also think that working your way into a degree should also be more commonly offered, as it used to be.

Sorry OP nothing to do with your daughter

The ‘rights’ thing was how I read it @Opposum and there is a definite movement in the UK, led by Farage, to denigrate the value of degrees which is parroted on here. The fact is there are people on here who like to talk a lot about education and all I can really hear them saying that that lower orders shouldn’t trouble themselves with such things.

You're entitled to your opinion, but several things can be true at the same time.
Degrees, sold to the population as a way to improve their earnings, aren't in 2024 always the way to go. As someone in an industry with a lot of career changers/any degree job who works very closely with graduates, I see the impact of this every day.
So many young people especially those from less well-off backgrounds, thinking that a degree would get them a good job and just did what they love. Unfortunately not.
Contrary to what you're saying, degrees that don't deliver on the economic front are a bigger issue for those from a lower socioeconomic background. Not the other way around.
A large supply of something automatically devalues it, on its own, just making the bar higher and higher. For many things people now need a Master's, unpaid internships, etc etc to get a look in which defeats the point of social mobility anyways.

The other thing of course is that Farage wants to scrap a lot of what he thinks are 'useless', I.e. Non- stem degrees. Which is ridiculous.

The answer to all of these issues lie somewhere in between.
Those who want to study, absolutely, should be supported to do so.
At the same times , those who just want to earn , but feel forced to go to university because there's no other way to get a good job.

We are all obsessed with degrees, but a degree is just one method of higher education. Other countries like Germany have equally respected routes into work. Why is the UK obsessed with degree or bust?

Instead of starting with the degree. We should be starting with the end goal, and working our way back to the ideal route. Anf said route shpisp have multiple entry points

I think I am probably coming at this from a different angle. When lower value degrees are spoken of it’s always in connection with young people from lower social-economic backgrounds. These young people are frustrated from the start with lower educational opportunities compared to their middle-class counterparts and you still want to limit their futures even more by taking them, and their achievements down. That’s the truth and the tragedy but there is little political interest in it because the political class are now mainly drawn from the middle-classes. When mumsnetters start taking about a Philosophy degree from Durham being a waste of time I may start to take you people serious.

a Philosophy degree from Durham being a waste of time

It may be, for some youngsters. But you've got it arse about face. It shouldn't be about denigrating that sort of course - it should be about elevating other options. It was a huge mistake to do away with polys rather than promoting and finding them (and other FE colleges) more. We've got a good FE/HE college near us which does lots of 'land based' courses - if my DD hadn't been strong academically we'd have encouraged her to take a very serious look at what they offered rather than 'going to uni'.

Universities absolutely should be elitist - but it should be a true meritocratic elitism which as far as possible adjusts for educational and societal disadvantage in earlier years. Scholarships/bursaries for those needing financial support (my grandfather started as a farmhand hired in the marketplace, his sons were both able to get scholarships to pre-war northern grammar schools and thence to Manchester and Oxford unis... why can't we do that now?)

When lower value degrees are spoken of it’s always in connection with young people from lower social-economic backgrounds.

I'm not at all sure that's true, from what I've read here over the years. 'You people' most certainly don't all agree on the type of position you assume....

@Lassi You seem very angry. I think you might like to know my great grandfather could not write his name. He signed with an X. My grandfather left school at 9 and my dad at 14. What many families have been able to do is become middle class. My DHs family were straw plaiters and farm labourers. What CHS be did they have? Each generation chipped away getting more and more out of education. Dc do have opportunities now and they can grasp them,

I agree with @Opposum . it’s poor advice that causes the biggest issue. I don’t believe everyone should do stem, but I do believe in aiming high and ambition. We don’t have to be our parents. It is the poorly advised who don’t do well. Anyone studying philosophy at Durham has a chance to get a decent job. Poor or well off. University is not about chopping off academic subjects but it might be looking at how many unis offer the subject and what advantage it’s brought the degree holder.

For example: a bright dc with maths and economics A level could look at economics or business. At the elite unis, generally economics is a better bet. Other unis like Bath have fantastic business and management courses.So a very bright dc should consider options like this. What I don’t like is a very bright student being told to sign up to the uni of (blah blah) because they’ve been on an open day with school and it’s just down the road. DC deserve better advice.

So yes, Durham should offer that course you mentioned to those who want it but the key for me is what it offers the grad afterwards and is it the right course for them? For poorer people, the job you get after is key or you don’t become middle class. Social mobility stalls. With uni expansion, we do have a vastly bigger middle class who do try and fine the best advice. So I’m proud my DD is well paid. She’s the great granddaughter of someone who left school at 9 with little chance of anything. Others can also work out how to improve their lives but feeling sorry for yourself is rarely it!

@TizerorFizz I am honest enough to admit I am passionate with hints of anger when it comes to young people who are suffering from poverty in this country. I do some mentoring and I can see how the odds are stacked against them. I am talking about the people who are growing up in child poverty now, not your dd who is the great-great grandchildren of someone who was once poor. Without wanting this to be me some kind of crass competition about working-class credentials think a lot of how I feel stems from my own experience and that of my DH. I think I can say with some confidence our current professional profiles would surpass that of many of the people on this thread including your dd, and we came from literally nothing. I am so angry and frustrated that instead of life chances now being better for people like us, they’re now worse.
I am completely unsurprised by your response that ’feeling sorry for ourselves’ is the reason why people fail when your dd succeeds because that is the standard thinking of middle-classes when this issue is raised. You can’t or don’t want to grasp the complexity of it because you desperately don’t want to admit to your dd having an advantage. FYI I don’t feel sorry for myself personally because I am doing pretty well, but good try at trying to stifle the debate by belittling me. Incidentally I know that barristers chambers are making great inroads to widen participation and I wonder how they would feel about a barrister’s mother spouting off on here about how it’s the fault of poor people for being poor. You know this is a public forum and there may be parents of prospective barristers looking for guidance and advice. I do hope you don’t put those people off trying.

@Lassi It's you who isn't engaging with any nuance or complexity. All you've done, in every single one of your posts , is state the same idea.
Everyone should be able to do any degree they want.
That degree will definitely allow them to get everything they want.
Anybody who has anything to say about whether this is a good idea is against 'the poors' bettering themselves.
Full stop.

Ironically, what you posted above doesn't support your view, but what other PP and I have been saying.
You complain that life chances are now worse for people like yourself.
However, university participation and education rates are the highest they have ever been.

Surely if a degree was the be and end all, outcomes should be better? Why are they worse? House prices, CoL etc is one thing, but more importantly, there is one major difference between a degree holder and a non, at the same salary.. the former has a greater burden of student loan repayment.

Previously, academic people could go to uni for free (still in Scotland), but those who did not go could work their way up. That allowed for greater outcomes.

Now, there's very little scope for working your way up, because so many have degrees jobs that used to train people up now put the burden on the student instead. A big financial decision at 17 is a gamble.

Democratising education that allows various people to achieve their desired outcome , no matter their starting point is the key here. Not shoving everyone into the same 'degree for 3 years at 17' pipeline. That's all.

We used to have day release, night classes, etc all of that is now gone.

There’s no nuance to my posts @Opposum because the position as I have witnessed it is quite black and white.
what you are advocating for is the scrapping of opportunities you want and expect for your own DC because you have decided on other people’s behalf their education is of no value to them. That opinion appears to be predicated on the grounds of money. I would prefer for a levelling of the playing friend and improvement of standards for the most deprived so they can compete fairly. I do hope that’s enough nuance for you.

Woah, there. I have kept out of this but telling another poster that you are sad that they mentor people is flat out rude.

Why oh why do these threads always go this way? It's so so far from the original question.

I had absolutely no idea what your education status is @TizerorFizz How would I?