A level choices - too weak?

[dinomirror]

Dd has chosen History, Politics and Economics. She is predicted mainly 8s (school doesn't predict 9s). Lots of people have been a tiny bit shocked when told choices and there seems to be an underlying feeling that they aren't 'hard' enough for her(especially politics) although i know history is a content filled subject . Should she change?

As an example, the mark scheme for the literature element of AQA German A level gives a list of points that the candidate could make as "possible content". There is no suggestion that these are the only acceptable points.

The top band of the mark scheme asks for opinions and conclusions that are consistently supported by appropriate evidence – so that is the criterion, but if your point is supported by the text and you can show that, happy days.

My daughter does English, sociology and psychology.

She loves the sociology and psychology ones far more then English which was her favourite up to GCSEs. Her school seems to have far more people doing stem a levels than classics, although not so much as the grammar near us which although being all girls is just totally stem orientated.

She got straight 9's in GCSEs and so could have done any a level, but humanities come far easier to her and she had to really work to get those results at GCSEs for sciences / maths.

She does look longingly at the predicted salaries for stem degrees versus sociology which is what she is looking at but she wouldn't be happy so it is what it is.

Stem degrees don't all attract high salaries anyway.., someone without both sufficient interest and aptitude is unlikely to flourish in them.

@Opposum my DD is going to Durham to do Sociology. She got a 6 in Math GCSE (though 8 in Physics and Chem, so can do it). Psychology, History and Art were her A levels.
Her initial degree choice was Animation. She is just finishing her Art & Design Foundation. But she really researched graduate prospects and decided she just couldn't have the career she wanted without a heck of a lot of graft and luck, and even then it would not be stable. She thought an academic degree would lead to more options.

It also remains a fact that the gender pay gap is appalling in most STEM industries. Obviously this will only be fixed by more women going into those careers in the long term but , in the shorter term, many remain pretty misogynistic workplaces. Particularly engineering and lab sciences. Women with STEM degrees would often earn more by going into science or maths teaching, which probably isn't why many of them went into STEM in the first place.

I don't think you quite got the point of my post. I wasn't saying that people should do Maths although they hate it so they can earn megabucks as an investment banker.

Rather, a quantitative element can be found in many fields which aren't traditionally associated with mathematics.
Furthermore, maths teaching at schools is often dry and boring. It can be very different with better, more focused teaching in university, when applied to a particular subject.

Teenagers don't usually know the ins and out of particular careers in detail, who they truly are and what they want from life. So IMO it's too early to write off 'anything involving Maths'. 'do what you love' well that implies that 'what you love' is something static and never changing. Untrue. A-levels are too shallow to be a good signal as to preferences.

Like I said, I too hated it and as a teenager never imagined that I'd work in a technical role involving mathematical thinking. But it was taught in a completely different way in university, I saw it in a different light, in a way I had never thought of before. Instead of something cold, separate and contradictory. It bolstered my strengths in Humanities subjects and gave me an edge over others.

A lot of people also change careers after finding out that their impressions of certain careers were different from the reality, and maths can help there too. And in 2024 so many professions are set to be disrupted by technology, layoffs, etc. Again, not talking about wanting to be the fabled 'high earner', but basic security like a home, food and work/life balance.

A little bit of discomfort at 17 is a small price to pay, in my opinion, for your future.

There are 2 different things here

• 'STEM' jobs themselves
• Other jobs which prefer 'any STEM degree'.

Despite all the hype it's not true that all STEM jobs are well paid, as you stated lab sciences and even jobs like optometry.

However, a lot of well paid industries like finance, technology, consulting etc 'prefer' STEM degrees. Furthermore, there are more jobs that say 'any STEM degree', than 'any humanities'. So humanities graduates have more restricted choices. I find that jobs which require humanities degrees want a specific subject, not 'any'.

Personally I think it's not about the degree subject. It's about how you position yourself and your skillet, your way of thinking and relating to people & problems. and how this relates to the job requirements.

Some people will be very strong/and very passionate about something, and that's fine. Others aren't, and they have to find the right mix.

Finance is lucrative, but if she isn’t interested in maths this probably wouldn’t be an option.

I think that you have to have a flair for maths to do well at ALevel.
DD1 achieved an 8 at GCSE . She is not a natural mathematician . She had a tutor for a year and a half. There is no way she would have been able to cope with A Level Maths
DD2 achieved a 9 at GCSE and an A star at A level all with very little effort and without a tutor
No one should be doing A level maths if they aren’t capable of achieving an 8 or 9.

@Fluffycloudsfloatinginthesky @mondaytosunday
It's hard to say - an 'academic' degree will allow more options for things like policy roles or the civil service fast stream, consulting etc. however the animation degree may have some technical IT aspects that would be much better for a career down that route. Things like UI/UX design, digital marketing. Some animation degrees have enough mathematical content to do things adjacent to fields of computer science, like computer vision.
In any case she can pair her artistic skills with her sociology degree and find something that suits

My DS got all 8 and 9 at GCSE and does a very similar line-up of A levels. He's predicted A stars and is looking at Oxbridge options.

I have been helping him revise and they are not easy at all. I in fact find them harder than maths and stem in some ways because there's no right answer half the time. It's about laying out arguments, evaluating them and drawing some kind of conclusion. Plus a lot of background knowledge and quotes etc. I think they are tough and would be a good foundation for lots of courses in arts and humanities in uni

As a Scot with a STEM career I think the following:

1. @dinomirror DD's A level choices are all academic subjects and perfectly respectable and intellectually rigorous. I think if people are sniffy about them that says more about them than it does about her choices.

2. The divide between science and the humanities obvious in this discussion is a symptom of the very limited range of subjects children in England have to choose for A level. 16 is far too young to have to make a choice between sciences and humanities and it is a big failing in the education system here, it limits their options far too much. My DD is also choosing A levels at the moment and we've spent ages looking at what is required for various degrees to make sure she doesn't accidentally close off any options that she's interested in. In comparison in Scotland I did Highers in the following subjects which meant all degree options were open to me: Art and Design, Biology, Chemistry, English, History, Maths, Physics (most people do fewer than this but 5 subjects with a mix of science and humanities is standard). I changed my mind at 17 about what I wanted to study from Architecture to Biochemistry. In England that would be a virtually impossible move to make, in Scotland it was easy.

Again, just my personal experience but I think it depends on what you mean by 'natural mathematician'.
Some people don't have strong enough logical reasoning skills for it. They wouldn't be able to do philosophy or anything else with rigid logic or scientific thinking.
Some don't have the capacity for abstraction, but can do it if applied. Of courses this means high level 'pure' maths will be impossible but A-levels should be OK.
Some (like myself) cannot keep up with all the variables, term etc. I have ADHD and could understand everything in plain English but by the time variables became involved I forgot what x, y z etc were supposed to stand for. I got A* with a lot of hard work and my excellent pattern recognition from doing last papers but Further Maths by hand for example would be beyond me.
Some others have processing speeds too slow to get good marks in exams even though they understand very well.
Also, some were never taught the foundations properly in the first place! Line graphs for example are very easy when visualised, but most of my teachers just made us memorise formulas without understanding what was happening intuitively.

Also OP I realised that I never actually answered your question.
Your daughter wants a lucrative career.
She excels at the sciences but maths doesn't come naturally to her... Is she good at biology but not physics?
She's indecisive and doesn't have a set career plan.

I would strongly encourage her to take Maths A-level because it keeps her options open. That's all.

@JaninaDuszejko I completely agree about 16 being too young to choose, I know some parents prefer IB for this reason.

Of course some people have a clear aptitude and preference either way, but the majority don't, and so have to hedge. It's very normal to not have your whole life planned out at that age, you're still a kid and don't know who you really are, or who you'll become. It's especially important in our current world where very few have a 'set career' for their entire life.

@Lassi You seem to think people have deep pockets for optional enjoyment. I’m afraid, in the real world, artists do certain things for free, as do journalists, musicians and loads of other people. They want to get noticed and have a go. Insisting on money is often going to work against them. Many set up their own business. They aren’t paid to do that. They take the risk. Nothing brings in money until it’s sold.

Where lots of people can do something it means the price is low. Where you have a name, the price is high. Of course. It still leaves loads of people with no work and needing a career rethink. Many trained for the stage for starters.

Most companies have a salary structure. I think women leaving and not staying for senior positions and not bothering to be Chartered Engineers holds them back. Just doing a degree is the start. No one is the finished product. Women could do everything if they crack on. Too many don’t.

@dinomirror Of course non stem grads can earn a lot. Definitely don’t need maths A level! There are other parts of the brain that need a workout to give a balance in society. Lots of the jobs mentioned on here don’t earn a lot either!

I think a thing called childbirth may stop many women from 'cracking on'...

Yes. It's good old structural sexism. Many STEM jobs, particularly at higher levels, aren't particularly family friendly and the reality is the lions share of caring responsibilities land on women (whether by choice or otherwise). This can lead many to exit industry and academia and either move to other fields or to teaching. Well, as there's a shortage of STEM teachers that's good for society I guess...just not great for women.

Maths doesn't come naturally to her in the sense that if she doesn't revise she will get a 5 whereas in science and humanities she could (and has) get a 7 without revision. I would say bio is strongest yes

I have to say, as someone with 30 years' journalistic experience, the only things I have done for free have been comms tasks as part of volunteer roles, or supporting friends or family (reading job apps for example). None of that has been in order to get my name out there!

I know a lot of journalists and I don't know any who wouldn't say the same. Why should we work for no money? It's not as if it's a well-paid career in the first place.

Yes you can set up your own PR business – but again, unless we are talking about blogs and SM posts to promote that, you will get paid for work you do.

Personally there is no way I would ask a musician to perform, or a visual artist to create something, without offering to pay them.

Anyway. A bit off topic for sure. @dinomirror if your DD would get a 5 in maths without a lot of revision, then I would certainly not advise maths A level. As others have said, a C in maths is less useful going forward than an A in any subject, pretty much.

Op I think this is a great combination for your daughter to gain a good understanding of how the world functions . I did Politics and Economics at a level and it has served me well my whole life . They are not easy subjects . If she is interested in studying economics at University she may want to think about maths - even an AS level might be useful . If she wants to do Law as I did I think they are good choices

@clary The OP said nothing about needing 'a lot' of revision. On the contrary, with no revision whatsoever her DD can still get a 5, which indicates a good aptitude for the subject.
OP's daughter is clearly very intelligent with an excellent memory if she can get such high grades for other subjects without revision.
It's perfectly normal to need practice for maths. Not only do the bulk of marks come from showing complete workings. It's very easy to make small mistakes (due to speed) that snowballs into something bigger, leading down the wrong path completely. The wording of the question can also be difficult to interpret.

BTW most people need to do some revision, even if it 'comes naturally' in terms of understanding they still need to refresh their memories. Equally, no matter how much some people revise, they'll never get anything beyond a C.

You're measuring your daughter's maths ability against 'her' performance in other subjects, which is unusually high. Not against her peers.

Also OP biology being her strongest science subject - and doing well in the others - the formal proving of maths is probably her bigger issue, rather than a lack of understanding or struggling with concepts?
Physics for example is just another branch of maths - it would be odd for her to sail through that but struggle with understanding maths

Why is everyone obsessed with recommending maths in conjunction with economics?

I did economics at A level, despite hating maths and being hella relieved to get past GCSE and give it up! My DH did psychology, which involved more maths (statistics) than economics did.

OP, she’s chosen great subjects, if she’s interested in them. You can’t fake it at A level - choosing maths or STEM just ‘because’ would be a really bad decision. Just support her in researching and she’ll do fine, because it’ll be her choice made in full regard of the information on what it could lead to.

@clary Sadly you are not a young journalist! It’s well known journo grads don’t get paid for articles! You are older so it’s not the same for you or your cohort. It’s rife so that why pay is rock bottom.

Women who crack on and don’t take years out hold their own in the workplace. It’s very very difficult to keep up with men who don’t spend a few years away from work. Many women do work full time and get promotion. Didn’t suit me but lots of colleagues did it. It’s the main reason why senior jobs aren’t taken by women and they leave. Not unreasonably, it all gets too much .

@NoSquirrels To answer your question - the elite unis want maths. Economics is now seen as hugely mathematical. FM is wanted by the top unis (they might not specify this - but they do!). So economics with no maths leaves the A level subject as a Billy no mates. Won’t be enough for an economics degree - in the best unis which is where mn DC go! . However economics is fine with essay subjects but If she’s not that bothered about maths and doesn’t get high grades, I’d look twice at economics A level too. A MFL is a better choice.