A Level choices too limiting? Economics, Business Studies and Accounting

[Choices2024ALevel]

Ds has a couple of weeks left to make his A Level decision. I'm very much leaving the decision to him but want to provide some gentle guidance and thinking points and I'm a bit concerned about his choices.

He's decided he wants to be an Accountant and has selected Business Studies, Economics and Accounting.

I've already had the discussion with him that some Unis will require Maths for an Accounting/Finance degree so this may limit him - but he's adamant he doesn't want to do Maths (despite it being one of his best subjects, he's just got his early GCSE results and had A). Also spoken about keeping his options open - but in typical teen style he's supremely confident that his future career is mapped out as an Accountant and of course there's no chance he'll ever change his mind 🙄

How are these for choices do you think? Is there far too much overlap which will massively impact his future options? Is Accounting A Level going to put Unis off? Or will these be fine despite the overlap and many Unis won't mind as long as he gets the required grades?

Accounting Alevel is at least slightly less pointless than an accounting degree.

I really hope he reconsiders / does some proper research on how to qualify as an accountant before committing to this path. His current plan is delaying his goals by 3 years and incurring tens of thousands of debt for no reason!

You don't need a degree in any subject to qualify as a chartered accountant, much less an accounting degree. He might get a limited number of exam exemptions (which isn't necessarily advantageous as it makes it harder to leap straight into the higher stages) but he will still have to complete 3 years of experience to qualify.

Why is this his plan?

Sheffield, Nottingham and Cardiff won’t care about no maths A level. Nor do Birmingham, Exeter or Manchester. Bristol state they want Maths A level. So RG A level guide isn’t far out.

Also quite a lot of degrees are accountancy and finance. They don’t just lead to being an accountant and certainly young people can change their views whilst studying. I would go for a broader business degree with a work placement.

Echoing some of the previous comments and adding some more thoughts.

Your DS's A Level selection sounds fairly dry to me. He also doesn't need to do maths, or do do accountancy at university. If he is so sure he wants to be an accountant, I suggest he does A Levels he actually enjoys, and then gets an accountancy apprenticeship.

People who study accounting at university are the ones who most frequently crash and burn in a grad scheme. Not all employers allow them to claim the exemptions they've gained as part of their degree, and for some reason, they generally seem to struggle more. I don't know why. Maybe it's because they expect to find it easier given their degree and when it isn't, the pressure gets to them more. As I said, they crash out spectacularly.

I'm not a fan of recruiting trainees who have studied accountancy. It gets them minus points when I'm sifting CVs. The more random the subject, the more likely they are to think for themselves and bring a new perspective to the table. I'm also not a fan of DS's subject combinations - they sound same-y. Again, it's about choosing someone with a broader perspective so they can think for themselves.

Although I did a degree, if I had my time around again, I'd do an apprenticeship. Degrees are expensive and are just about deferring grown up life until you decide what you want to do. Your DS knows already, apparently. Go straight to being an apprentice. He'll earn whilst he learns, and rather than being saddled with debt after three years, he'll actually have savings.

PS I'm quite senior and earn good money. I didn't do maths at A Level and I definitely didn't do accountancy at university. I can count on one hand the number of actual accountants I know who did accountancy at university.

Work backwards from the degree if that is what he wants to do. The rule of thumb is usually a 1 grade drop from GCSE to A level with the exception of maths which is usually a 2 grade drop. However, those coming in on very high grades will of course be more likely to achieve A stars at A level.

Based on that knowledge google top universities for accountancy and then look at each university's entry requirements before finalising his A level choices. Although he is not wanting to take A level maths lots of applicants will probably have A level maths and even further maths. There are Freedom of Information requests from universities about what applicants they actually offer to and you/your Ds could contact the admissions department to check what they are looking for.

Further maths is often not listed as not all sixth forms/colleges teach it but for maths based courses it may put him at a disadvantage. If he is looking at the apprenticeship route google for your local area for apprenticeship fairs so that he can ask those companies about their apprenticeships and how to apply. Unis are all through UCAS but apprenticeships are sometimes just on the company website. Does his sixth form have partnerships with local firms?

@strintrina So an A in Wales for GCSE is a C at A level? For maths? An Astar at GCSE is a B at best? Obviously this isn’t true. Or no one would get a top grade A level in any subject!

@TizerorFizz I did caveat by post with "However, those coming in on very high grades will of course be more likely to achieve A stars at A level" because of course students achieve A stars at A level. The potential 2 grade drop is maths alone. My youngest son is year 13 and is taking maths and further maths. His whole timetable has just changed as they merged 2 further maths classes together due to the sheer number of students who dropped it to concentrate on their maths grade. You need a grade 7 to take further maths which means those on grade 7s are struggling with maths. My son came in on a high 9 as did my eldest.

noblegiraffe who is a maths teacher of both GCSE and A level has posted about this situation for years. If someone gets a 7 in England in maths on the higher paper they are potentially missing 50% understanding of maths at GCSE. We were told by the maths teacher at our son's school that 50% of the higher maths paper questions determines the 7-9 grades. This is why you need to be a solid 6 to sit the higher paper as there will be lots of questions they just cannot answer.

Pearson exam board roughly tracked students from maths GCSE to their grade at A level in maths and those on grade 7s were most likely to get a D or a C. noble explains it in this post here because lots of sixth forms ask for a grade 6 to continue maths at A level

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4007205-How-maths-GCSE-result-predicts-A-level-maths-result-important-for-grade-6-7

Also Cambridge Assessment have tracked GCSE to A level grades for years, this 2017 document, there is a 2018-2020 but that is affected by Covid, again this shows the progression for all subjects, page 5 onwards is the easiest to read in terms of seeing all subjects listed and the grades awarded and the drop from GCSE to A level is obvious.

https://www.cambridgeassessment.org.uk/Images/560531-progression-from-gcse-to-a-level-2017.pdf

Echoing what a PP said, the big 4 take on apprentices after a levels so something to consider.

I would strongly advise dropping accountancy at A level - it's pointless and will not go towards the CIMA or similar qualification that trainees are expected to complete in graduate schemes.

@strintrina As the courses I’ve listed don’t require maths or FM, what does it matter? DS doesn’t need the maths. Even if he did it, a B would be fine looking at entry requirements at most. So maybe he should do what he’s going to get a better result in? We do know a 7 doesn’t lead to a Astar in very many subjects.

@TizerorFizz when did your children go to uni? I am only asking because Ds2 is year 13 and we spent last year talking to admissions people in the finance/accountancy/economics departments of universities including ones you have listed on their open days.

This is all about being a competitive candidate. An advertised entry grade is with very few exceptions the lowest grades that a university will take applicants in on. If they are asking AAA of course there will be applicants with a much higher grade profile and some universities will openly admit they start with the 3 A stars or more applicants to offer to. The OP's child wants to do accountancy which goes hand in hand with maths meaning applicants will have maths A level which he will be competing against. Whether or not that goes against him I don't know because my child is taking maths and further maths so it is a moot point for us to ask about.

I advised the OP to look at the grade profiles of successful applicants because this is about making informed decisions, seeing who you are up against. You see it on here, an aspirational AAA is someone else's 3 grade drop if they are predicted 3 A stars. Contacting admissions departments now to ask them specifically what they are looking for is better than the university website as they are the ones reading the personal statements and choosing who to offer to.

Although the subject choices may not limit his career as an accountant it may limit which universities he may expect to get offers from.

I would highly recommend maths, I didn't have it and it was a problem. I only got a 2:2

I train ICAEW, CIMA & ACCA apprentices (school leavers and graduates). The vast majority have at least a grade C at A level maths & would struggle without it. The actual degree is largely irrelevant, if they decide to take one. An accounting & finance degree would give a few exemptions from the professional exams, but anything goes from philosophy to physics to psychology.

I would encourage him to take A levels in maths, economics and something else. I wouldn't waste time on A level accountancy or business studies. Some professional accountancy exam papers will only have 15 - 20% of the marks available for numbers, so economics, history etc are good A level choices.

Encourage him to keep his options open at this stage. A lot can change between ages 16 to 18.

@strintrina On these types of courses few are asking for AAA. The grades might be the minimum but I have listed loads that do not ask for maths! It’s beside the point what my Dc did and when. They aren’t accountants. Of course the top unis are out. That’s inevitable but it’s not a deal breaker to not have maths and not get AAA. Only on MN are such things vital.

Accounting a level is unnecessary.
He should do something slightly broader, but if he is insistent, leave him to it.

Drop business studies. Do maths.

He's being pig headed and silly.

Economics, maths, and geography would be a superb combination.

It might be difficult to essentially start geography at A levels. He could look at the syllabus and try to get his hands on subject materials to see if he would be interested / feel able.

@TizerorFizz when your DC went to uni is relevant if you are not out there talking to admissions at the unis you are listing for the course the OP's child is interested in, things change. Plus what his sixth form may or may not allow him to combine subjects wise because as most people on here know from personal experience in the last couple of years they would not let you take economics and business studies as they are too similar.

Just because they don't ask for maths doesn't mean they don't favour those applicants who have it, this isn't a geography degree, this is accountancy and finance. The uni wants students who can cope with the workload and not drop out, they choose capable students. They make themselves competitive by listing their entry around AAA/AAB. As I said aspirational for some, an insurance for others. That is why it is sensible to know what grade profile they take applicants in on. Ds1 was at a uni with an A star AA entry, the actual number they take at entry grade is very low. FOI shows this.

Won't there be overlaps between Economics, Business Studies and Accounting?

I wouldn't take either of Accounting, Economics or Business as A levels.

Having studied Economics at University and then worked in Finance, The would strongly recommend Maths A level.

Economics is taught from scratch at University and some lecturers actually prefer if students come in as a clean slate. I came from abroad where economics is not taught at school and my English was not great. Yet I did very well as I had had a good Maths foundation.

Definitely do not do Accounting A level - it's not highly regarded academically.

Sorry, I can't edit - meant to say 'I would strongly recommend'

I personally wouldn't recommend studying Accounting & Finance either - you do not need it to become an accountant.

Most firms will recruit smart and well rounded and well educated applicants. I would keep my options at this point

An accounting & finance degree would give a few exemptions from the professional exams, but anything goes from philosophy to physics to psychology.

Yes - a broad and well rounded education is what many employers look for. And Maths A level often.

We were advised to do either Economics or Business but not both.

@strintrina So you are saying all those unis I listed, and some specifically say you don’t need maths, are lying? Even lower ranking ones? Really? What hard evidence do you have for saying their admission info is misleading? What percentage do have A at maths A level? Not on an economics course: an accountancy and finance course. What are the stats for these courses at the unis I listed?

There are many relevant courses not requiring maths. No doubt because accountants can be taught if dc are reasonably numerate. This is what they ask for and DS here seems to be ok with that.

It’s incorrect for unis to state applicants won’t be considered favourably without maths to you yet categorically state it’s not necessary in their info pages. I think some unis know they have applicants who will do well on the courses without it..As they do when training to be accountants without therefore they are flexible. Some list a range of subjects which they like and say take two of them. The lists are quite long!

I was interested in the question posed by the op so looked at some unis. I was surprised about maths but don’t forget some of the best mathematicians won’t be going for accountancy and finance. ABB or BBB entry tells you this. They are not very competitive courses mainly, I suspect, because accountants don’t rate them as so many have stated in this thread.