A Level choices too limiting? Economics, Business Studies and Accounting

[Choices2024ALevel]

Ds has a couple of weeks left to make his A Level decision. I'm very much leaving the decision to him but want to provide some gentle guidance and thinking points and I'm a bit concerned about his choices.

He's decided he wants to be an Accountant and has selected Business Studies, Economics and Accounting.

I've already had the discussion with him that some Unis will require Maths for an Accounting/Finance degree so this may limit him - but he's adamant he doesn't want to do Maths (despite it being one of his best subjects, he's just got his early GCSE results and had A). Also spoken about keeping his options open - but in typical teen style he's supremely confident that his future career is mapped out as an Accountant and of course there's no chance he'll ever change his mind 🙄

How are these for choices do you think? Is there far too much overlap which will massively impact his future options? Is Accounting A Level going to put Unis off? Or will these be fine despite the overlap and many Unis won't mind as long as he gets the required grades?

Forget the university degree (if they decide to go) as that's largely irrelevant. The profession itself expects mathematically literate members. Pass rates for ICAEW exams run at around 75%, ACCA are 30 - 50% depending upon the paper. Employers expect their trainees to pass each paper, preferably on their first attempt.

An A level in accountancy would give you one or two days of the knowledge required to pass a couple of early papers. Take maths.

Very many bright grads won’t have a maths A level but can still become accountants.

I am a chartered accountant ( big 4). I did history, English lit and geography and then history for undergrad. Got an A ( old money) for maths GCSe but no maths a level. The maths you need for accounting is really not very advanced.

you don’t even need an accounting degree to be an accountant never mind an a level. Do something more fun. Accountancy is actually not a boring job but the theory kind of is.

They still can but it's a useful A-level to have. Many of the accountants I know have a degree in Physics.

For anyone planning on a career in Accountancy, I can only say 'month end, quarter end, tax year end, financial year end...'

There are of course other ways that graduates can demonstrate their brightness, Maths A level is one them.

OP there are a few of us here who know what we are talking about. I would place far more trust in someone who works in the profession, recruits in the profession and/or has taught more global prize winners in the profession than your son will have GSCEs! 😀

It is heartening how many of us have turned up and are being consistent with our advice - it's obvious we do all indeed do the jobs we say we do.

However, it's frustrating as hell to read the parents ignoring this incredibly helpful and relevant advice because it doesn't fit with what people who don't work in accountancy have told them....

@TizerorFizz I think the point you are missing is that the uni states AAB, but applicants will have all manner of A level combinations which is why some unis (not talking about this course) specify grades in certain subjects. Admissions will state they "prefer" applicants to have certain A levels but the personal statement can highlight other relevant experience whether through summer schools, masterclasses, supercurriculars, work experience etc. Not everyone knows what they want to do at 16 and so sometimes students do not choose the right A levels.

The first question Ds2 was asked by all the admissions people we spoke to at every uni was what A levels are you taking? I did overhear another student being asked why they had chosen not to take maths but quite frankly I was busy with my own child to listen to others.

It is always recommended to speak to admissions about your A levels, in fact lots of sixth forms, including my son's have "future focus" days where representatives from different universities set up stands in the college and you can talk to them. They come from far and wide. The same applies to apprenticeships and local businesses who the college also have affiliations with. Through sixth form Ds (and others) have also been to subject focus days at a university, spending the day with the department where they can experience uni style teaching and again talk to admissions who are obviously trying to recruit.

And of course you can become an accountant without maths A level, however as @Numbersaremything states "I train ICAEW, CIMA & ACCA apprentices (school leavers and graduates). The vast majority have at least a grade C at A level maths & would struggle without it."

Even if a University doesn't require a subject does not mean that most offer holders haven't offered it as an A level.

For example some universities don't require Further Maths for certain non maths subjects but the vast majority of those who receive offers have actually done Further Maths.

No stats appearing for the courses in question though. Plus I’m not giving advice. I don’t care what the DS takes and presumably neither does his school. Plus if only 10% of a grad intake to be an accountant has this degree, presumably the recruiters are looking for something else and maybe it’s maths A level but not this degree. I assume dc would be better off doing history then?

When I'm hiring a graduate trainee (or an apprentice trainee), I'm looking for academic ability in something that interests the applicant (ideally not accounts and finance) and lots of extracurriculars.

A "non-relevant" background (i.e. a random degree in something the applicant enjoys) generally yields better pass rates in the professional exams. I need to consider not just someone who can do the job, but someone who can pass the professional exams or I'll just have to fire them later, and that's not pleasant for either of us.

Extracurriculars show that the applicant can juggle all kinds of shit, and that's largely what accountancy is. Juggling, reprioritising... I want to hire a busy person who manages to do lots of things.

A candidate with an A in A Level Maths, a first class Accounts and Finance degree and no paid jobs, no volunteering experience, no committee positions within clubs and societies... straight in the bin. I want some balance and some drive. I will occasionally hire someone who has studied accountancy, but they have their work cut out in proving to me that they're a good hire.

Generally, the best kind of accountants never wanted to be accountants, and have a really broad background and different perspectives on life. They come with better critical thinking. They know they start knowing nothing, and I guess feel like they have more to prove, which is a great energy that I can harness. The ones who have studied accountancy previously think they know more than they actually do, and they struggle more.

If your DC is interested in history and is therefore likely to get a 2:1 or above in it, yeah, it's a great choice for someone who might want to become an accountant.

Someone who has an A or a B equivalent in GCSE Maths who could have easily gone on to get an A or a B equivalent in A Level Maths has enough maths skills. They don't have to actually have done the A Level. If they're more interested in something else, they should do the something else and get the higher grade/have more academic enjoyment.

I'd rather see an A in A Level Geography than a C in A Level Maths.

Looking at his GCSEs Economics/Psychology/Computer Science would be better surely?

@dontcountonit Your post makes sense to me. The DS isn’t thinking of history as you can see from the OPs post but I’ve been trying to say no Maths A level isn’t a deal breaker for this career. Others strongly disagree. As usual there’s a middle way and students are well advised to get relevant work experience and make sure they can cope with a high workload and juggle successfully! Even if they do an accounting and finance degree.

The degree choice is irrelevant. PWC recruit apprentices who have degrees in football management but they also have A level maths. Graduates in dance have A level maths. They are recruited for their skills and behaviours, including numeracy.

The professional exams are hard. You may only have 3 - 4 weeks to start studying for your first papers before you sit your exams. Employers are unforgiving in many cases with typically 1 resit allowed a couple of weeks later.

Set yourself up for success & study something which will help with the career you think you may enjoy, but will keep many more options open beyond the current ideas of a 16 year old.

My son goes to a grammar school and he wants to do a business degree. His careers counsellors advice when he was choosing between business and economics was to only do economics if he was also going to do maths. I think you need to get him infront of the school's careers counsellor and also ask him to pick a few uni degrees and check their entry requirements.

@Numbersaremything PWC isn’t the only employer. So the recruiter posting earlier is talking rubbish are they? Clearly opinions differ on maths. Dance grads with maths A level? How many do you see each year? Just out of interest!

They sound limiting and he may get bored of them by the end which would make it harder to work hard at them. Better to miss one out and do something totally different. My ds wishes he did and he did three similar subjects.

I'm not disagreeing that you need some form of basic numeracy to work in accountancy, but it is only basic. And you don't need an A Level. A good GCSE in it is fine.

If you want to do an apprenticeship as a school leaver, it's assumed you must not hate maths to make that kind of decision that young.

If you get a decent degree in anything, basic English and Maths skills are assumed.

I'm not against a maths A Level, but only if the kid actually wants to do it.

I am against Accounts and Finance at uni. It pushes you towards a career in accountancy, but the people already in accountancy don't actually want someone with that degree.

Do a different degree, any degree, and you have the direct career options from that degree, generic graduate options and you also have accountancy waiting, because we specifically embrace the randomness.

PS It's the Big 4, not the Big 1. Other employers than PwC are available. 😉

@dontcountonit I do agree that other degrees are better. My DD converted to law after a MFL degree. Varied skills are useful in the workplace. I agree there are lots of employers and the big 4 don’t Hoover up everyone!

I don’t agree all degrees show dc have good enough English and Maths. GCSE results are probably a better indicator and tests at interview or pre selection. My DH has not been happy about the standard of English he sees in engineering recruits. He feels like a teacher with a red pen. Clients expect good English in reports. It matters. His engineering consultancy isn’t “big 4” or even “big 40” but they still recruit grads. Just fewer. The skills they need aren’t much different but for a good grad, being a major cog in the wheel is likely to happen much sooner.

You don't need A Level accounting nor an accounting degree to go into accountancy. Those with an accounting degree will take just as long and will follow exactly the same training path in an accountancy practice to do their professional qualifications which, depending on the body, will take typically 3-5 years and 10+ professional exams alongside work experience to become fully qualified. That's the same whether your degree is in accounting or Music!! The only "benefit" is maybe an exemption or two of the professional body exams and a bit more background knowledge which may help the on the job training and other exams.

Accountancy, these days, and even more so going forward with AI, is analytically based, so a humanity or science A level would be a good match for critical thinking, logic, etc.

I know that A level Maths isn't essential, but all the firms I've worked in, (several accountancy practices and a stint in industry over 40 years), and in a couple where I was responsible for recruitment, we would only short list applicants with A level Maths - we never required a stupidly high grade, but we did require A level Maths to have been taken.

Considering Accountancy is literally ALL about numbers, it does come across as strange that someone wanting a career as an accountant doesn't want to do A level Maths! I can understand why you'd not want to do A level further maths as that really is a step too far, but A level Maths does build on the GCSE and accountants do need a good understanding and aptitude for some topics taught to A level standard, i.e. statistics, probability, etc., even if they don't need to know the more technical aspects taught at that level such as the scientific and engineering mathematical topics.

To be perfectly honest, I'd be recommending a combo of something like Maths, Economics and History/Geography. Then maybe Financial Maths as a degree which would really make him stand out when it comes to finding a top graduate job, and also keep other options open, such as becoming an actuary rather than an accountant. It's not good to be so limited with a combo of Economics, BS and Accounting - very pigeon holed and not a broad range at all due to all the overlap. The usual recommendation is not to do BS if you're doing economics. For someone with an A at GCSE not taking Maths at A level seems bonkers to me as it's probably the most valued A level for employers and Uni and keeps so many doors open.

@taxguru But he doesn’t like the maths he’s doing. So going forward what is the grade going to be for maths A level? My DD got A at maths GCSE years ago. No interest in it at all. An A doesn’t mean you are a mathematician.

I think being an accountant isn’t right for this DS but he can do a myriad of degrees without maths and still be an accountant. Just not necessarily with the top rung!

Accountancy requires numeracy not mathematics. You don't need more than a GCSE in maths to become a chartered accountant. I use next to none of my A level maths in my role.

Considering Accountancy is literally ALL about numbers, it does come across as strange that someone wanting a career as an accountant doesn't want to do A level Maths

I disagree with this. It's not "all" about numbers or "literally all" about numbers. It's about law, accounting standards, business advice, relationships, processes, analysis, risk management, tech skills... The actual numbers are rarely the difficult part.

I work with numbers every day but the numbers themselves are not the main attraction.

Anybody who went into accountancy because they hoped it would be like their A level mathematics studies would be disappointed.

@TizerorFizz today I have run a webinar for 137 sitting their final case study paper in a fortnight. I'm well aware that PWC is not the only employer. I have at least 9 different organisations represented in the class I'll be teaching tomorrow.

You tend to set yourself up as an expert on many topics on the HE threads, but those of us in the profession have a little more credibility.

Dump the accounting definitely. Not having maths narrows choices but not impossible. What else does he enjoy.

Excellent post by @folkjournals and highlights that OP's DC might benefit from researching what accountancy (and its various sub-disciplines and related areas) actually involves. Career section of the ICAEW website is a good starting point, whether ACA is the appropriate pathway or not.