A Level - is this a good combination and is 4 manageable?

[ChildMissedTheBusAGAIN]

How does this combination sound?
And what’s the workload?
Is 4 manageable?
Is it best to do 3+AS only?
Predicted GCSEs in the range of 6-8.

• Chemistry
• Physics
• Politics
• Religious studies/Philosophy

Sixth form usually offers 3+EPQ or 3+Core Maths or 3+AS only

DD doesn’t want to do EPQ or Core Maths so wants to do 4 A Levels instead.

Although there is the option of choosing the AS only route for either Politics or Religious studies/Philosophy.

Doesn’t want to go to university and likely to go onto a degree apprenticeship.

Has been looking at:

• Nuclear scientist degree apprenticeship*
• Nuclear technician degree apprenticeship*
• Healthcare (radiation physics) degree apprenticeship^
• Healthcare (dosimetry) degree apprenticeship^

*96 UCAS points to include a STEM subject. Different pathways require a specific STEM subject at 32 points ^104 UCAS points including 32 from physics

The other option is to start with four, especially if some of them are untried subjects, then drop one after a couple of weeks and concentrate on three.

I think this is a really good idea and I don't know why more schools don't do it (timetabling reasons, I guess, and knowing for sure they've got the numbers to run a course). Would have saved us a lot of problems down the line.

But agree that 4 in general is too many for any child who also has friends / hobbies / a part time job. Each A-level is usually five hours in the classroom plus at least five hours of private study each week so 4 A-levels = 40 hours before travel time and other downtime. That's a very intense week.

if they're not strong at Maths, maybe the careers / apprenticeships you're thinking of aren't right. At our school, you have to have 8 or 9 to be allowed to do Maths A-level, and wouldn't be allowed to take Physics without it.

I work for a company who have a lot of nuclear engineering/technician degree apprentices & have sat in a lot of assessment centres for them.

There isn’t a focus so much on the subject, but around the academic results - while we don’t look for the multiple A* pupils, it is still a degree so will require Bs as a minimum.

The focus is more on them as well rounded individuals with extra curricular, jobs, volunteering etc as well as the passion and basic understanding of the industry.

I have been absolutely blown away by the standard of the apprentices coming through, they are more well rounded than me in my 30s & I was highly academic.

My children all went to Grammar school and very few students took four A levels ,Far better off taking three and getting higher grades .

Grade 6 in maths is pretty low for A-level physics (and chemistry, to be honest). If she's not doing maths A-level then she will have to work harder than lots of others in the physics class, too. It sounds like physics is important to her ambitions, so I'd suggest dropping one of the less relevant ones and picking up core maths.

I totally understand wanting to study 4 interesting subjects in y12 but presumably she has to achieve in y12 to progress to y13?

If she's struggling with 4 subjects, would the school ask her to drop one?

@TeenDivided I did mine in 2004, it all seems so complicated now. My DD has been told she will need to drop French as a GCSE. I thought all children had to do a modern language. I'll have lots of questions come options evening!

Good luck OP to your DD. Those are some tough subjects and I know for certain my DD would struggle with any mathematical subjects. She's only in Y9 now but I do worry that she won't be at the right academic standard for a-level.

Workload I don't recall being massive

That's because you essentially sat four half A levels in year 12 and four half A levels in year 13. A levels were decoupled a few years ago (5 or 6?) and are now linear. AS levels don't count towards the final grade.

They don't have to do an MFL. it means they won't get the 'EBacc' but as that is meaningless it doesn't matter.

There is more to post 16 than A levels. BTECs/T-levels can be great as they are a different way of learning. You can still go on to university with them, and getting the top grades requires ability.

As a science teacher I'd say don't do Physics without maths and also don't except a high grade if they're coming into it with 6s. I'd expect a C to be the maximimum

Dd works in nuclear physics, maths is essential, she doesn't have further maths and even than was a struggle. Degree apprenticeships still are degrees

The OP's DC is predicted 8s for sciences, and 6/7 for maths.

The maths is much more limiting on the a level physics then the physics theory.

The focus is more on them as well rounded individuals with extra curricular, jobs, volunteering etc as well as the passion and basic understanding of the industry.

This is a really good point to note. My DS is currently doing an apprenticeship. I think he would have struggled to get through the assessment process without having work experience (not in a related field but being able to demonstrate soft skills and understanding of a workplace). For an apprenticeship I would say 3 A Levels (+EPQ if wanted) plus work experience (or voluntary work or varied extra curricular demonstrating range of skills) would be valued over 4 A Levels and limited time to do much else.

if she doesn't like maths enough to actively want to do for A-level then she will not enjoy Physics and Chemistry A-level, which are both very mathsy. between the 3 of them the workload of Maths, Physics and Chemistry A-levels isn't much more than 2 A-levels worth because there is so much syllabus overlap, which is why it's not unusual to take a 4th with that combo. but taking 4 unrelated subjects would be enormous.

I work in a school that usually allows students to start 4 A-levels, but we are reviewing this for September. We have hard class size limits for A-level, especially sciences and other practical subjects. This year, we have turned students away from popular subjects like biology and psychology because the classes were "full", only to have students drop the subject by half term because they were studying 4.

So the plan for next September is to prioritise students for their 3 favourite A-levels and only allow them to start 4 if there is space in the class. We would allow students to switch early in the course if there's space too.

We've also found we had a few students on D grades in October/November who really wanted to carry on with 4 A-levels- but it makes more sense to drop to 3 and get decent grades across all 4 subjects.

I get that 6/B makes things harder than if you had 7/A but it doesn’t make impossible. I can’t see how having a 6/B would limit someone to do as well as they could in a subject if that’s what they were really interested in and wanted to put the work in for it. For some, being able to do subjects at AL, even if they have lower grades and end up with average/lower AL grades still opens more doors than it closes or than if they just had GCSEs.

Just in response to this, there are a couple of reasons. For sciences specifically, the step up to GCSE is huge, and 6s usually equate to D/C grades if there are 6s across the board. A lot of schools, especially highly selective ones, really only want students who will get A*-B grades at A-level and get into "good" unis, hence having higher requirements for sciences.

You do also get the issue of parental expectations. I work at a school where we are happy to take students onto science A-levels with 6s and we will support them to do their best. BUT you do get a lot of parents who think that 6s at GCSE will lead to B or above at A-level and in general they don't. Obviously, there are individual exceptions to this. We do try to make it clear that students just meeting the minimum requirements are unlikely to get top grades at A-level.

Some of these students would be better suited to taking different subjects and getting higher grades, or perhaps doing a vocational qualification which might actually give them a better chance of getting into uni than getting, say CDD at A-level.

At some point, it is important for schools to be realistic in terms of expectations and say "If you do this, you're not likely to do that well, and you may be better off exploring other options".

Part of the problem is that the jump from e.g. combined science to A-level has got quite big, because the science grade boundaries at GCSE are very low.

@Postapocalypticcowgirl
For sciences specifically, the step up to GCSE is huge, and 6s usually equate to D/C grades if there are 6s across the board.
That's confusing. 6 = old grade A-/B+ not D/C.

Sorry to clarify, I mean a student who got 6s in science and one out of maths or english at GCSE would probably go on to get a D/C grade at A-level.

It's equivalent to a B at GCSE, but it doesn't follow that student will get a B at A-level.

@ChildMissedTheBusAGAIN hopefully some useful info and perspectives for you on this thread. I am going to make some suggestions on a slightly different tack.

Your DD may not get the chance to 'try out' a fourth A-level because of option block clashes or because she sees that Core Maths may be beneficial and so the time slots for a fourth A-level are taken up by that. If this is the case, one of my DC found looking at past exam papers (as well as syllabus detail) was very helpful in giving a sense of which was their preferred choice (politics was in the mix too for them). Might help your DD too.

PP are emphasising the degree to which fluency in maths supports Physics and Chemistry. Could your DD's current focus on A-level choices be an opportunity to encourage her to discuss with her GCSE maths teacher(s) where there may be areas that can be worked to move the eventual GCSE outcome higher (and so provide a really solid platform for her science A-levels)? I adopted a similar approach successfully in respect of Eng Lang & Lit with one of my DC by showing them that an improvement in those subjects at GCSE would help them at A-level in other, related subject areas. It worked a treat! They had the carrot they needed.

Just some thoughts; hope they help.

Dd loved religious studies/philosophy at GCSE, got a 9, and it was the one subject she was set on for A level. She hated the A level and said it was completely different to GCSE, not just a step up like her other subjects. So if your dd decides to still look at RS/P I would suggest she looks at the course content carefully.

DD2 is doing physics A level with maths and says physics has a lot of maths in it and the maths work they are doing helps with the physics a lot.

Good luck to her whatever she decides, it sounds an interesting career to aim for.

Just getting the minimum grade requirements don't guarantee she'll get onto the apprenticeship.

Incidentally, the Civil Service degree apprenticeship in nuclear science wants Maths A Level: www.civilservicejobs.service.gov.uk/csr/jobs.cgi?jcode=1823376

Hey fellow teach, you are wasting your breath. It’s depressing isn’t it. op asks for advice. As a science teacher of 30 years I give her free advice, that grade 6 is nowhere near a B, and not to take physics without maths, or 4 A levels at her level, and you get a long post saying that I am talking nonsense and Op knows better.

perhaps we should wait, Op could actually come on here in 2 years and finally thank us for our advice?