A Level - is this a good combination and is 4 manageable?

[ChildMissedTheBusAGAIN]

How does this combination sound?
And what’s the workload?
Is 4 manageable?
Is it best to do 3+AS only?
Predicted GCSEs in the range of 6-8.

• Chemistry
• Physics
• Politics
• Religious studies/Philosophy

Sixth form usually offers 3+EPQ or 3+Core Maths or 3+AS only

DD doesn’t want to do EPQ or Core Maths so wants to do 4 A Levels instead.

Although there is the option of choosing the AS only route for either Politics or Religious studies/Philosophy.

Doesn’t want to go to university and likely to go onto a degree apprenticeship.

Has been looking at:

• Nuclear scientist degree apprenticeship*
• Nuclear technician degree apprenticeship*
• Healthcare (radiation physics) degree apprenticeship^
• Healthcare (dosimetry) degree apprenticeship^

*96 UCAS points to include a STEM subject. Different pathways require a specific STEM subject at 32 points ^104 UCAS points including 32 from physics

Core maths is much easier and far less work than EPQ

Yes - really wish dd had done this instead!

That is a very heavy workload. I wouldn't advise it to be honest.

I'd be surprised if she could go into nuclear science without maths

You may also find that school are unable / unwilling to timetable 4 A levels, if that's not their normal practice. DS started 4 and quickly dropped to 3, finding it too much - but 4 was only possible because he is the only one doing one of his subjects, so that could be timetabled for the 'EPQ slot' to suit him.

I did Chemistry, Maths and Economics. I did Biology in my first year and I dropped it, because I hated it. I thought I'd end up dropping economics.

To be honest, having 4 a levels gives her the option of exploring more subjects.

Exams aren't until the end of 2 years anyway so even though it's a lot of workload for the first year, the benefits are that she can choose her top 3 from the initial 4.

Also, the Maths in Chemistry isn't that hard. If she's doing Physics though I would definitely say to do Maths. The topics overlap quite a lot, particularly if she's doing mechanics. Mechanics in A-Level maths is basically Physics.

Both my dc did 4 but both got a string of 9’s at GCSE with relative ease. One found maths a big step up and struggled with it having got 9 at GCSE. However it wasn’t a lot of work outside class. Essay subjects have much more indep work and often bottlenecks when essays or coursework clash. I don’t think EPQs are that useful if you are doing a research / essay subject anyway and neither dc got uni offers based on points (which EPQ could count towards) only on 3 A levels. So I would probably pick an AS or core maths over an EPQ. EPQ are useful if you want to show an interest in a subject you can’t do an A level in eg if you wanted to do philosophy at uni and your school didn’t offer it. Otherwise they are a massive tick box exercise of how to do research where you get more marks for following the process than for what you write. A lot started with 4 A levels and dropped one in first term. That can be useful as often can be surprised which subjects struggle with. There was a lot of pressure from senior staff in school to only do 3 but dc own teachers supported them doing 4 on basis they were getting good grades. But only the dc who were getting lots of 9’s at GCSE did 4 A levels. It’s a shame we restrict dc so much at 16 in other countries they could stick with a wider range for longer. Some schools and colleges do IB which allow 6 subjects. Job wise it would make sense to do maths and 2 sciences + AS essay subject. That would keep most options open in case changes mind about career choice.

the benefits are that she can choose her top 3 from the initial 4

The downside is that all the grades could suffer. DD did AS levels (in 2017, the last year her school did them) and achieved AABB. She dropped to three subjects and pulled the B subjects up to As to end up with AAA at A level. She achieved mostly A and A* at GCSE, so I feel that advising a student who is averaging lower grades to take 4 A level subjects isn't in their best interests.

Mine has straight level 9 and already has done 2 GCSEs and got a level 9 in both and an A for AS level all prior to year 11. She is doing 4 . Biology,chemistry, religious studies / philosophy and drama/ theatre studies. She is sitting 10 GCSEs this year and an A level (maths) - she is likely to get an A* and level 9s for everything.

Workload wise she has said 4 is absolutely do able as it’s 40 lessons out of 60 a fortnight. 20 are not timetabled. She is planning on allowing for 40 hours of work a fortnight untimetabled. If she utilises her time effectively, she thinks 20-30 hours of homework a fortnight is more than manageable 15 hours a week outside school effectively . She does volunteer and do sport but universities are less interested in this and more interested in reading around the subject. So she does plan to schedule but she is highly academic and managed to do an a level alongside her GCSEs with a few a level lessons timetabled in with year 13. She is very unique though she heads to the library before and after school and does two hours each day rain or shine as she likes the p and q.

I would say she’s right as well, in most school don’t want four B grades but 3 A grades are more valuable to both the student and the school.

We discussed it at length with the head and head of sixth form and they are both in agreement with me that we will be driven by her. If she wants to drop one she can or move it to an AS. But she is exceptional and is already house captain in year 10 and 11 rather than the usual year 12. She does scouts, piano, Spanish, Horseriding and competitive swimming on top. I don’t drive her she drives herself and so far despite my concerns she is thriving. She is autistic though and happiest when doing maths or learning lines for a play.

all children are different.

I don’t know yours but I’d be asking why? Why an app and not a degree? What are the advantages or disadvantages? of both? I’d speak to a career advisor and the local hospital to see if someone already in that field can mentor them?

in my mind my daughter doesn’t need 5 a levels but she and the school are happy with her mental and emotional health. She has medicine and drama school covered from her options and she’s very different to yours.

most school expect a level 6 for a level but prefer a level 7/9 and preferably an 8 or 9.

for your son - for the potential of physics - speaking as a nuclear physicist myself albeit one that had a phd in a different field I’d ensure maths and physics are done to ensure he has the option of maths or physics at uni or engineering.

what do the teachers and head of sixth form say?

4 A levels are hard and unecessary. Our highly academic school allows it only if it's maths and further maths. You're also not allowed to do Physics a level without maths a level, maths without an 8 at GCSE and Chemistry without a 7 in maths GCSE. I'd get her to seriously reconsider maths in some form.

Our school would never allow a child who is predicted 6s at GCSE to do four A levels.

It's a highly academic selective independent. You have to get a 6.5 average at GCSE to be allowed entry to sixth form with at least 7s in linear A level subjects and ideally 8 or above. You are not allowed to do maths without an 8. You are only allowed to do four A Levels if one is FM.

Would core maths really add very much to the sort of course/path she is interested in? I thought that it was primarily taking GCSE level skills and applying them to problems, with a few new topics, and that it was suited for those with Grade 4 GCSE and up. I know that it's sometimes suggested for those who want to go into social sciences, business, etc, courses that have a greater need for quantitative analysis, statistics, and so on, rather than the sorts of maths topics that would be more useful for physics/engineering/chemistry. But I am not an expert as I don't know anyone who has actually chosen it in the end, just considered it.

I think you need to look into what sort of grades she might be expected to get with GCSE of 6/7. It might be fine for getting ON to the A-level course, but will they be enough to get her the good grades she'd need for a competitive apprenticeship? Are there things that might mean she'd pull up her grades for A-level? (i.e., sometimes people really come into their own after GCSEs, or they missed some of the earlier content for various reasons, or they were ill or unhappy at school or had bad teaching or whatever... ,and all this changes at A-level and they buck the trend to get higher than predicted grades). If not, then if she ends up with 6s in some of the subjects, she might think whether she is strong enough in those areas to get good enough A-level grades for the apprenticeship (which she might well be - I don't know how competitive that is). I know that some students just don't think further than getting what is stated as the necessary levels for getting on to a course, and not about how well they will do on it, or about how competitive it might be to get there.

An EPQ would give her lots to talk about in an interview, and a chance to show her strengths in the field, even if she didn't do a maths A-level, or if she didn't do as well on some of the exams, so it seems like a good extra option.

I mean, well done to your dd, but the Ops dd only needs 96 ucas points for the apprenticeship so not sure how relevant a lot of these answers are tbh 🤔

Exactly what I was thinking @Janieread.
In case anyone thought my post was a stealth boast I just wanted to illustrate how an A/A* student can struggle with 4 subjects. DD dropped psychology which was an extremely content heavy subject. This enabled her to pull up the other grades.

Do the apprenticeships have preferred subjects? (In reality, not what they say).

I think your DC does need to do at least Core Maths, and I'm a little surprised that school is not pushing them towards A Level maths. But sounds like grades may be a bit low. TBH A 6 in maths would worry me for taking A Level physics.

I would go chemistry + Physics + 1 other (ideally maths if ability allows)
OR politics + RS + 1 other

4 is a lot and they are quite disparate subjects.

OP you have some excellent advice, particularly from @RampantIvy . I sm a former Russell Group STEM admission tutor, and we always prefer quality over quantity.

It is advised not to do Physics without Maths A level. The positive view is that the two reinforce each other very effectively particularly if you elect the Mechanics modules in Maths.

Those GCSE grades are good to very good, but not stellar. I am also concerned about the jump to AL standard and think your DD wise to focus on 3 subjects. If she is determined to do more, an EPQ she can finish Autumn term of Y13 is a much safer option than a 4th AL

Aw, thank you @poetryandwine

Most schools will let you start with four and then you can always drop one at any stage, this is better than having to start another subject from scratch if you find you don't like one of your options. There are lots doing four A levels at my dd's school and one is even doing five (this is just a bog standard comprehensive and they're not all doing further maths as one of them).
The only problem is if the combination will fit into the option blocks as it is quite an unusual combination.
Subjects that would go together best: physics, chemistry and philosophy
or chemistry, philosophy and politics (I'm sure I've heard of combined physics and philosophy degrees). Your daughter could look at the physics and chemistry text books to see if there is one she prefers/thinks looks easier.

OP,

To clarify, Physics AL assumes you are taking Maths along with it. I was educated abroad, but my understanding is that there is a small formal reliance on the Maths AL and a large, important assumption that you are getting important pedagogical reinforcement in mathematical thinking in your Maths training, no matter which modules you elect.

With your DD’s PGs I don’t see how she can afford to ignore this

Another vote for 3 not 4.

Quality not quantity. Odd to do Physics without Maths, even if school allows it. Core Maths will at least keep quant skills fresh even if not quite right kind of Maths (Maths quickest forgotten subject).

I think it is a good idea to do an essay writing subject though. But only the one. She should look more into the syllabuses.

School only want GCSE grade 6 in chemistry, physics and maths to do chemistry and physics at A Level

Are you absolutely sure? Ds's school require you to do Maths in order to do Physics. He needed a 7 in Maths to do Maths and Physics. It was horrible that he was faced with not doing 2 A levels. He was borderline 6/7 in Maths but got a mid 7 as we got him tutoring.

Also, don't get hung up on which essay subject to drop. She will be unlikely to have both choices due to clashes so just put one first choice and one second but be prepared to get the second.

Except drop politics.

If she is looking at an apprenticeship would the EPQ enable her to do a project relating to it and therefore give her an advantage over other people? From what I understand you can do it on anything you like.