School Head of Dept getting involved in daughter’s A level choices

[W0tnow]

We moved to Spain several years ago, in part because we wanted our children to learn another language. My oldest daughter has picked it up very well. She recently did her GCSEs and did brilliantly. One A, and the rest A*. (She goes to a British international school) She plans to study in the UK.

She wants to pursue a career in science. Biology is her passion. She is choosing Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Spanish for A levels. Or she was.

She was taken aside by the head of STEM yesterday and advised that if she wanted to get into a top tier UK university, she should drop Spanish and take up further maths as she will be looked on more favourably. All of the courses she is interested in require biology, and one other science or math - which she obviously has covered.

Im really annoyed that he spoke to her, she’s convinced he is right, but it just doesn’t sound right to me. We’re Australian and know very little about the UK system. We moved here so the kids could learn the language! She received a 95%ile result for Spanish and he’s convinced her she should give it up! There is also the issue (in my mind) that he has convinced her to narrow her focus. Surely if anything, universities look favourably on students with a broader outlook/ background?

She got the impression (as did we) that uk universities (or at least the ones she is interested in) look for other ‘stuff’ besides required A level subjects. It is difficult for her to work, volunteer here as she isn’t fluent in Spanish

That's really not the case. She needs to demonstrate her interest in the subject, not in extra-curricular stuff. Honestly no one cares, not even Oxbridge. If she want to do a Bio degree she need to talk about Bio, and read outside the AL curriculum, talk about some recent developments in life sci (there are loads!). The language useful though if she wants to do a year abroad (or a year at home as you're in Spain!)

it was part of the original EU withdrawal agreement that protected UK citizens rights till 2028. It's not very well known and sits outside the usual domicile assessment. There's another thread on HE here that has the links to the legislation.

The OP's daughter isn't a British national and it sounds like she's never lived in the UK.

and I’m now a university lecturer. In my opinion, the teacher’s advice is correct and further maths

You'd really recommend B, M and FM for a biologist? Rather than Chem?

OP states quite clearly her child is a UK National. It's OP who's an Aussie.

If the goal is to go to a U.K. university she would be better doing 3 A Levels rather than 4. Every year there are parents of pupils on here whose children haven’t got in because they have, for example, AABB and the offer is for AAA and the university won’t accept BB for the A. I would say further maths is the exception but I still wouldn’t do it if her maths isn’t really strong. When is comes to the actual exam timetable, Spanish could affect her grades just from the volume of exams. This year I know Spanish also clashed with a few others were taking so pupils got disrupted as exams have to be carried over to the next day and then you’re not allowed phones/laptops etc for the night.
The only one I think works as a 4th is further maths but I wouldn’t do it if it was going to affect the others.

For universities that use a points system, ignore the above! BB would give you more points than an A.

Have a look at a few university requirements. I think if she wants to do biology then she needs chemistry. Maths is useful.
I would do Biology, Chemistry and Maths (and maybe further maths if able) or
Biology, Chemistry and Spanish.

Personally, I think the Head of Sixth form is trying to help and what he says should be considered carefully.

DD was advised that further maths is necessary for Oxbridge, for maths, physics, engineering arts. degrees, and that although they don’t state that, your definitely disadvantaged without it. DD did physics at a Russell group, they all give offers without further maths. However she regretted having not done it, because it really helps with the degree, even if you don’t need it to get in. You won’t need further maths for a biology degree. Also on personal statements, DD was told by an admissions person that they don’t even read them any more, offers are made via an algorithm based on results and predicted

I would guess that the Head is thinking she is Oxford/Cambridge material and they are going to prefer FM over Spanish

Oxford definitely wouldn't prefer one over the other. Cambridge because one applies to do Natural Sciences it is plausible it would make a small difference. Probably also worth noting that every biology offer from Oxford is A*AA, whereas Cambridge make different offers to students doing the same course including sometimes 4th A-level if a student is doing one,

This may help:
UK University entry requirements

The 10 Most Respected A-Level Subjects – Ranked for 2022

Oxford will be happy with 3

Further maths is very useful for physics and engineering degrees, for biology I would not be concerned to be honest

Yep, I agree with others - if she’s that bright (which with those GCSEs she clearly is) they are looking ahead to Oxbridge….her chances of studying science based subject there will significantly improve with FM. If she’s not fussed about applying to either of those stick with the Spanish. Ultimately she might as well do what she enjoys if she’s not fussed.

HNRTT but if her preferred destination is biological sciences then FM will add nothing and unless maths aptitude is strong then seems destined to under-perform. Might be more of a rationale if the suggestion has Physics and her preference was towards the Physics/Chemistry though seems unlikely as she'd presumably want to pick Physics herself. Do Oxbridge value a 4th A-level beyond depths of potential and interest and acievement in three subject-relevant 'hard' A-levels anyway?

The presence, absence or otherwise of a fourth A-level is irrelevant to Oxford. Perhaps less so Cambridge, but very many Cambridge undergraduates have done 3 A-levels.
At no point does a fouth A-level feature in Oxford's decisions whether or not to make an offer. Spanish requiring different skills to the other A-levels may though mean a student is more comfortable at interview.

A not insignificant number of Oxford biology undergraduates have not studied Maths A-level. Very few will have done further maths.

@titchy but the OP's daughter is already doing chemistry? The choice is between FM and Spanish.

I agree FM isn't essential if she wants to do a biology degree, but she may change her mind during the next year or two and go for a different science subject (for which FM may be useful). She's only 16.

There's some good advice on this thread and some dreadful bits as well.

Fees-wise: as long as she was resident in the EU at the time of the end of the transition agreement on 31st December 2020 (which sounds like she was based on 2 years there already for IGCSEs), as a UK passport holder she is entitled to home fees under the terms of the withdrawal agreement. This stands for courses started until 2027.

Number of A levels: the school probably offers International A Levels, which still have a standalone AS. Therefore she'll probably be dropping one after a year anyway. Most international schools tend to follow that model still, so students aren't limiting options as quickly.

Language A Levels: very few universities discriminate against students taking native languages, in the same way they don't against English speakers taking English language. In many cases they can't legally, as this was challenged in the courts by a group of Urdu speakers a few years ago. It used to be the case, it now isn't. I recently asked every rep this at a large university fair, only UCL said they don't recommend it. All this is irrelevant as the UCAS form will show clearly that the student hasn't been in Spain all that long, and so Spanish isn't anywhere near native anyway.

Subject choice: more varied. If there is a chance she might change to engineering or chemistry degrees, or Nat Sci at Cambridge, then further maths would be better IF she loves maths and would do well at it. Big IF there though.
If she's sure she wants any kind of biology or biological science, then the Spanish is an equally valid choice, especially if she loves it and will do well in it.

Teacher reasons: the teacher may be trying to recruit a great student to their department as they want the numbers or want to teach her. Often students with loads of Astars at GCSE get inundated by teachers trying to convince them to take their subject, as all teachers want the great students in their class. They're looking at in isolation though, without knowing the overview of her other subjects, aims, and preferences. On the other hand, they may genuinely know from conversations from the other teachers that the Spanish will be a challenge and is trying to gently steer her away from taking it on eithout upsetting her. The fact that it's a Head of Stem rather than Head of 6th or a teacher that knows her well does seem like a flag that they might not actually know all that much about uni admissions though; they have changed a lot from when any teacher applied to uni.

Source for all of this: I'm a university advisor, I work with 120 students per year in my sixth form advising on A Level choices and uni applications. Currently further way, I previously did this job in Spain for 9 years.

Final point- the article ranking A Level subjects is bollocks. Please don't read it.

She only needs to do 3 ALs - doing four is pretty risky as her offers will be based on 3 and she risks those 3 grades by taking four subjects. 3 plus an AS would be the most sensible way forward.

My daughter got into medical school in the uk with biology, chemistry and drama.

Maths at AS level.
She has done very well and doesn’t regret her choices.

OP states quite clearly her child is a UK National. It's OP who's an Aussie.

Sorry. Didn't see that. The original post suggested something different.

and I’m now a university lecturer. In my opinion, the teacher’s advice is correct and further maths

You'd really recommend B, M and FM for a biologist? Rather than Chem? Hmm

For what it's worth, I'm a university lecturer (medicine) and my opinion is the exact opposite, although I would recommend only doing three A-Levels, anyway. The latter point, however, is more relevant to students applying for courses that interview or make heavy use of personal statements, for which having some significant supra/extra-curricular activity makes the application stronger.

There isn't going to be a single correct answer to this. The student needs to research universities' entry requirements herself.

Justcannot, That is helpful, thanks. The STEM head hasn’t taught her, nor met her before now. Her Spanish result was similar to Maths, Biology and Chem - comfortably in 90% ile. But I have asked her to chat to her Spanish teacher to gauge his view of her potential.

there is a university admissions focal point and we will chat later. I’ll ask about AS levels. I’d not heard of them before.

I would suggest sticking to her subjects. Further Maths is for people who not only are good at Maths, they love it! My DS is doing Maths/Further Maths History and English. This means half of his timetable is Maths. There are around 70 students doing single maths and only 6 doing double. DS can't get enough Maths, he is loving doing Maths everyday. Your daughter's interest is Biology. Biology, Chemistry, Maths with Spanish as an extra are a great combination! Maybe the Head is worried about the 4 A levels rather than that she does Further Maths. If she finds it too much work, she could drop the Spanish or take an AS level in it. You definitely don't need Further Maths for Biology, but I would say single Maths with Biology and Chemistry is a great combination.

Final point- the article ranking A Level subjects is bollocks. Please don't read it.

Ain't that the truth.

I think you need a detailed talk with the head of year....

Problem here is that I think he will be talking of top teir as Oxford/Cambridge + 1 or 2 others and maybe you are thinking of it as a "good" university.

If she wants to get into top teir, she needs to be really focssed on strong subjects and getting the best she can

Good university and yes you are correct.

@titchy I never said that I recommended Biology, Maths and FM for a biologist - I'm not sure where you got that from? I agree with you that if she was only doing three A Levels it would be better to do Chemistry than FM.