School Head of Dept getting involved in daughter’s A level choices

[W0tnow]

We moved to Spain several years ago, in part because we wanted our children to learn another language. My oldest daughter has picked it up very well. She recently did her GCSEs and did brilliantly. One A, and the rest A*. (She goes to a British international school) She plans to study in the UK.

She wants to pursue a career in science. Biology is her passion. She is choosing Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Spanish for A levels. Or she was.

She was taken aside by the head of STEM yesterday and advised that if she wanted to get into a top tier UK university, she should drop Spanish and take up further maths as she will be looked on more favourably. All of the courses she is interested in require biology, and one other science or math - which she obviously has covered.

Im really annoyed that he spoke to her, she’s convinced he is right, but it just doesn’t sound right to me. We’re Australian and know very little about the UK system. We moved here so the kids could learn the language! She received a 95%ile result for Spanish and he’s convinced her she should give it up! There is also the issue (in my mind) that he has convinced her to narrow her focus. Surely if anything, universities look favourably on students with a broader outlook/ background?

Is it possible that your daughter doesn’t actually want to do Spanish and has latched onto this as a way out? It’s a big thing to move to a country so far away from your home country specifically for the children to learn the language. Maybe that’s making it hard for her to drop the subject.

You need to step right back and let her make her own decisions

Until a few years ago, I worked in admissions for a couple of Russell Group universities.

This is the really important bit
"All of the courses she is interested in require biology, and one other science or math - which she obviously has covered."

If the university doesn't say that FM is required, it's not. Sometimes teachers and others like to make up requirements they think universities have. Honestly - if it's not on the uni website under 'entry requirements' it's not a requirement.

It would also be a bad idea to spread herself too thin; she would be much better off getting, for instance, AAB than BBBB.

Presumably she will be able to do the Spanish A Level with minimal effort as she is already fluent. The same could not be said for FM. It's common for students to do A Levels in a language they speak at home (e.g. Urdu). It's useful for proving proficiency in that language, and does absolutely no harm whatsoever, but is often best done as a fourth A Level if it's a native language as university policies do vary on native language A Levels and they aren't always counted in the same way. An overworked admissions tutor could easily see a Spanish A Level from a student in Spain and assume it's their native language.

Frankly, yes. It’s why we moved here. Up until 2 days ago she was happy to do it also.

kids were told to think long and hard about their subject choices months ago. And also if they wanted to do IB (she doesn’t) because they couldn’t change. They had loads of time to challenge her choices. She’s also been asked if she wants to consider IB this week, as it will “give her a broader knowledge base”. So she has the STEM head of department suggesting she narrow her focus, and the IB coordinator suggesting the opposite.

I don’t know about the finding thing. 🤷‍♀️ Or even if it applies to a British school overseas.

She’s not fluent at all, yet.

He’s likely right that FM will give her wider options than a language.

She can become fluent without an A level.

It’s odd you’re annoyed

We actually moved from China. They haven’t lived in Australia since they were in very early primary.

Given you are overseas candidates choosing the uk for uni I’d not an obvious choice

have you looked more broadly including USA?

Why should it fit with her science A Levels?

There’s some unhelpful advice on this thread. If your DD has covered the requirements for the courses she is interested in doing in her choices, the universities don’t care what her choices are beyond that.

DS is about to go to a top RG university having done three STEM subjects and Latin (and getting offers from all 5 RG universities he applied to with that combination). Fortunately, his teachers were bright enough to recognise that what’s most important is the passion for the subjects, and thus they didn’t advise him based on uninformed speculation about what universities might ‘look on more favourably’.

Further Maths is a hard A Level. Unless your DD absolutely shines in Maths and has a real passion and flair for it, she will struggle.

Most maths students do further maths. This is absolutely untrue 😂

If she is applying to a course that required further maths and her school offers further maths then she needs to do further maths. Applicants to these course who come from schools which don’t offer further maths are exempt. This is for highly selective universities. I cannot speak for mid ranking

When I was choosing my A levels, I wanted to do Eng Lit, History, Politics and Human Biology - I wanted to do History at university so the Biology was just because I was interested in it (and it was one of my strongest subjects at GCSE). My teachers persuaded me not to take it, and I’ve regretted it (mildly) ever since.

Further Maths might well strengthen her application (though not as much as if she wanted to do Maths or Physics at uni) but an A star in Spanish will probably help her more than say a C in Further Maths… is she good enough at Maths to excel at Further Maths? And would she enjoy it?

And who is this important to? You or her?

My experience of talking to admissions departments and other staff at many of the UKs top universities each year is that they would rather she did Spanish.

Universities and those who teach in them want interesting thoughtful people. That is more likely to be the case for someone whose fourth A-level is not science or maths applying to a science degree than someone who just does another science or further maths.

Universities would not discount her Spanish A-level because she lives in Spain.
A few universities do not accept native speaker doing their own language, but she is not a native speaker. In addition Spanish A-level (like French and German and unlike Russian and Chinese) includes a significant amount of literature and is more like English Literature A-level, and so even for native speakers is a significant challenge and so not discounted. Whereas Russian and Chinese does not have the same literature content and so are sometimes ignored when taken by native speakers.

Littlebear, because they’ve known for 2 years she was a bright student, because they’ve known for almost 6 months what her A level choices were, because now she is convinced she won’t get into the university of her choice without further maths because that is the idea they have given her. Because they could have had this discussion before the summer. Because now we are scrambling around to get accurate information. Because I suspect that TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross is correct.

PremiumPiglet. She was actually born in the UK and has a British passport, and having lived in an EU country for 3 years prior to attending a UK university she is eligible for home student rates. We can’t stump for a US university..her choices are Australia or UK.

TheOnlyLivingBoy, it’s tricky. Her only real passion is Biology. But she does equally well in maths (and Spanish, for that matter). She is bright, but she works super hard. She’s studied every day over the summer. Sometimes I worry she studies too much and I don’t want FM to push her over the edge. But maybe it won’t? I don’t know.

anyway there is a uk university focal point at the school as a significant number of kids go to study in the uk. I’m talking to him today.

That was in answer to a previous poster suggesting she was fluent.

PremiumPiglet. She was actually born in the UK and has a British passport, and having lived in an EU country for 3 years prior to attending a UK university she is eligible for home student rates. We can’t stump for a US university..her choices are Australia or UK.

Since we have left the EU, it is not necessarily the case. The rules for home fees are horrifically complicated in cases like this and each university will make its own decision after application.

Not all US universities are as expensive as Harvard, some are less expensive that UK universities, plus often the cost of the US university is all inclusive, whereas the headline cost of UK ones is just the tuition fees.

My nephew went through a similar decision last year re: FM. Some universities require students to take further maths if the school offers it if they are interested in certain courses, generally physics and engineering. For biology, no, and if she's not really keen on maths I wouldn't push her to do it. It may be a timetabling issue, rather than funding.

Well if the advice is wrong, which it almost certainly is, then yes she should be annoyed.

She should also drop one in her second year btw - I'd suggest she does Spanish to AS, and concentrate on B, C and M which are pretty damn perfect for Bio degrees.

You could ask her to point out that having Spanish to AS gives her the option of a Bio degree that has a year abroad if she needs to argue her case.

And yes she is entitled to home fees, but be aware few are under this route and you may have to help the unis out with links to the legislation.

I think it's very unfair that children who are bilingual take A-levels in a "foreign" language.

How is this relevant? She isn’t bilingual. This is her third year learning the language. The school is a British International School. British curriculum, British teachers (mostly). The classes are all in English. No Spanish is spoken in class (well, except for Spanish class, obviously)

@titchy Why do you think they would qualify for home fees?

See for the rules in England:
www.ukcisa.org.uk/Information--Advice/Fees-and-Money/England-HE-fee-status#layer-6082

for advice.

The only category that applies is 1. Long residence. They may fulfil the first criteria by virtue of having lived half their life in the UK, but the 2nd of being ordinary resident in the UK on the first day of the course is debatable (but achievable) the 3rd of having been ordinarily resident in the UK for the 3 years precedingly the start of the course is already not the case (although there are ways of convincing the universities depending on the specific circumstances).

I agree. Unless she wants to study maths at degree level she doesn't need further maths. DD has just graduated with a first in a STEM degree that had a sizeable maths element, and she didn't even take maths A level.

IMO if she wants to take 4 A levels it would be better to take 4 that she would excel in and achieve AAAA or higher than three that she will do well in and one that she won't and end up with AAA (or higher) and a C.

In the UK some kids do 4 A levels but most only do 3 due to the work load. Aside from the further maths bit, I am guessing she doesn't want to do Spanish due to the workload and knows you want her to.
She can learn Spanish until the cows come home - she doesn't have to do it as a A level.

@jgw1 it was part of the original EU withdrawal agreement that protected UK citizens rights till 2028. It's not very well known and sits outside the usual domicile assessment. There's another thread on HE here that has the links to the legislation.