School Head of Dept getting involved in daughter’s A level choices

[W0tnow]

We moved to Spain several years ago, in part because we wanted our children to learn another language. My oldest daughter has picked it up very well. She recently did her GCSEs and did brilliantly. One A, and the rest A*. (She goes to a British international school) She plans to study in the UK.

She wants to pursue a career in science. Biology is her passion. She is choosing Biology, Chemistry, Maths and Spanish for A levels. Or she was.

She was taken aside by the head of STEM yesterday and advised that if she wanted to get into a top tier UK university, she should drop Spanish and take up further maths as she will be looked on more favourably. All of the courses she is interested in require biology, and one other science or math - which she obviously has covered.

Im really annoyed that he spoke to her, she’s convinced he is right, but it just doesn’t sound right to me. We’re Australian and know very little about the UK system. We moved here so the kids could learn the language! She received a 95%ile result for Spanish and he’s convinced her she should give it up! There is also the issue (in my mind) that he has convinced her to narrow her focus. Surely if anything, universities look favourably on students with a broader outlook/ background?

UK nationals living in Europe
For courses starting between 1 August 2021 and 1 January 2028, UK nationals and their family members living in the EEA or Switzerland will generally be eligible for home fee status and tuition fee and maintenance loans if they meet the following conditions:
they have lived in the EEA, Switzerland, or the UK for at least the last three years;
they were living in the EEA or Switzerland on 31 December 2020;
they have lived continuously in the EEA, Switzerland, or the UK between 31 December 2020 and the start of their course.

we meet the above criteria.

British Citizens who have lived in the EU/EEA for 3 years prior to applying to university are being considered as Home Students and will be for applications up to 2028.

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/eligibility-for-home-fee-status-and-student-support-in-england/

If you scroll down to British Nationals in the EU it gives the legislation.

As the legislation wasn't added to the guidelines until a while after the Brexit agreement was drawn up, there was initially some confusion as to what would happen. When my daughter first started looking last year, the clause hadn't been added, but contacting all her university choices and SF confirmed that yes, she would be a home student. It looks as if the OP's daughter is in the same situation.

X post!

FM is rarely if ever a required subject because not all schools offer it, so it wouldn't be fair to make it a requirement. However, as a scientist, I think FM is a huge asset to a scientific career above maths alone. Any branch of science requires maths and mathematical thinking. Spanish would be an asset to many careers too. How about doing the FM A-level but enrolling in Spanish conversation classes and other extracurricular activities alongside to keep improving the Spanish?

FM is a good course but it’s is only for absolute maths babies, it tends to derail everyone else.

It’s not vital anywhere, but as far as I understand it the courses for which it can add value are maths, physics and engineering and computer science.

I don’t think any institution would care either way for biology, so I would say to
your head head that you are sticking with Spanish for now, but will make a few phone calls to places she might apply to to check on his theory - that’s what you/your daughter wants - personally I’d just stick with Spanish.

Some quick points based on my own children going through the system and taking in many graduate entry juniors:

• Most British students doing A levels do three rather than four as most universities want three good grades over four pretty good grades.

• Further maths is typically taken by only the strongest mathematicians so the competition is tough. However if she is gifted at maths it can be two A levels for the price of 1.5

• key second subject for Biology is Chemistry, even a disappointing number of universities have dropped the requirement. Biology, Chem and Maths alone is a great combo for Biological sciences, especially if the Maths syllabus is the pure + stats type.

• When I'm looking at our STEM based graduate intake a non science in the mix is often a plus point, showing an extra dimension

I would contact a couple of the places in which she is most interested and ask them about entry requirements including 4 vs 3 subjects, further maths vs a language.

The HoD may be simply wrong on UK entries, they may be desperate to hit a target in further maths or they may be basing it on data from recent years of their students being accepted. Each department is "selling itself" to teh best candidates, STEM is no exception.

I wouldn’t be offended in the slightest that the Head of Department had spoken to my DD about her choices. It is their job to advise students and ensure they have made the best choices for their future goals. I say this as a teacher myself. Sometimes we do intervene if we feel a student hasn’t made the best choice for themselves. The teacher is just advising - they can’t force your daughter to change her mind!

For what it’s worth I would say Further Maths is going to be much more useful to your DD than Spanish at A Level if she can manage the difficulty of it. Going into a scientific career, having FM will be incredibly helpful in a way Spanish simply won’t be.

I would also echo others who have said universities can be a bit 🤔about language A levels when it appears to be the student’s native language. I know you’ve said your daughter is not bilingual or even fluent yet but universities will look at where you’ve been living and make the assumption that Spanish is her native language. It’s seen by many as a soft option - and though a PP has said it’s challenging even for a native speaker - I would have to disagree. The literature element is very simplistic and most native speakers breeze through and effortlessly get at least a B without doing much work at all. I spent 6 years working in an international bilingual school so I know of what I speak on this.

Ultimately it’s your daughter’s choice, not the head of department’s, but he does have a very good point about the further maths. Not every school offers it and I think it would be unwise not to take it up. Spanish A Level is not really going to develop your daughter’s fluency any more than her living in Spain should be anyway - if she makes the effort to read in Spanish, watch tv in Spanish, and speak Spanish with her friends, she’ll have the language skills taking A level would provide by the end of school. She doesn’t need a certificate in it. If she wants to have evidence of her language levels by the time she goes to university, she can always take the Cervantes exams - these will give her a level based on the European Framework of Languages and allow her to prove her level of fluency to a future employer.

this is a good suggestion, thank you. She took Spanish classes over Zoom over the summer (at her suggestion). She likes the tutor. It is a good compromise.

She got the impression (as did we) that uk universities (or at least the ones she is interested in) look for other ‘stuff’ besides required A level subjects. It is difficult for her to work, volunteer here as she isn’t fluent in Spanish. So she is limited in terms of what she can add to her university application in addition to the required 3 A levels. We ALL thought Spanish (along with her sporting achievements) would go far to demonstrating that she is a well rounded individual. Anyway, let’s see what they say today after the meeting.

True I had forgotten that.

Sorry I haven't rtft but there is so much misinformation out there, including in some schools.

1. The vast majority of students in the UK will only do 3 A levels including in selective schools. Universities really don't look for more than that. Far better to get 3 excellent grades than 4 good grades.
2. Students wanting to do maths or physics might be well served by doing further maths but, unless maths is a passion, it's not usually advisable for others.
3. Most universities do not look for or care about breadth of subjects. What the "top" universities are looking at is evidence that you're brilliant at your subject. If you're applying to Oxford or Cambridge then the advice is not even to mention anything other than your subject in the personal statement.
4. It used to be the case that being well rounded etc got you more noticed / more likely to get interviews etc. It's really not any more.
5. Having said that, you don't have to have "matching" A levels. It's fine to do 2 sciences and a language or a humanity as long as you meet the basic criteria for uni requirements.

We are looking at this now. Ds is taking Maths, FM, Chemistry and Physics A levels. FM for chem engineering, engineering and Physics degrees is preferred at the top universities. As a pp says, if the school offer it, then it is expected the candidate will take it. Offers are contextualised against school peers. They can't explicitly state this as not all schools offer FM.

There's some interesting stats on the Oxbridge websites, for example, for engineering (I'm using this as an eg off the top of my head so the figures aren't entirely correct) they say, of the students that were made an offer, 89% had further maths A or A star.. So, if she is aiming for a top uni, look at the uni stats for her course and see what % needed FM. I suspect for a biology degree/biosciences course, it is not needed.

Hi, @W0tnow. My own daughter did the IB at an international school outside the EU, but she didn't do a science degree when she went to study at a Russell Group university in the UK, so I can't give you advice based on my family's personal experience. We had a different problem from yours, which was resolved by her deciding to wait till after her IB exams before applying to university, and taking a gap year, but I would agree with all the previous posters suggesting that before taking any decisions, you/your daughter directly contact the Admissions Departments of the universities she might be thinking of applying to for her chosen subject, and ask them what their requirements might be. They might all be different, but given that it sounds as if she might be able to "coast" through the Spanish A level, if that would make her life easier and still mean she could get a place at a university of her choice, I'd suggest she went for that rather than FM if she is not that way inclined. It will help you to have the facts before she makes the decision.
Good luck!

Also, unless she's applying for medicine / vet med / dentistry etc then she doesn't need to do volunteering / working etc for her uni application.
If she's applying to O or C then they like to see SUPRAcurricular activities but aren't bothered about extracurricular. So going to lectures (online or f2f) about your subject or reading books and watching films about it will be helpful. If applying to history then maybe volunteering at a museum etc. But just doing stuff to show you've done things is no longer beneficial for uni applications in the UK.

(So different from my day where "I love reading. I have grade 8 piano and play percussion in an orchestra" would be seen very positively).

Agree with @nightwakingmoon
I'm a former Head of Sixth Form ( now Head of a STEM subject) and would advise her to take it as a compliment but stick to her choices. If she has unis/ courses in mind already she can go on the UCAS website or the individual unis and see what subjects her possible unis say she must have, and what subjects are preferred(desirable not compulsory). This will help her see for herself the lie of the land with facts rather than other's opinions.
In her situation, would always advise 2 ( or more) sciences, which she has, as she would need this for a scientific degree.
Lots of the comments on here are either a bit out of date or are from 1 experience; likewise the Head of STEM has a vested interest in getting a clearly intelligent, committed student on the Further Maths course. Sometimes Heads of subjects do get a bit carried away and inadvertently put pressure on students they would like to teach.
I would not recommend FM for any student as a 'passing' option. It is hard, they need to love Maths. Not doing it will not bar her from what she is currently thinking of doing at uni, unless she is thinking of Natural Sciences at Oxbridge, where they like it but, again, not a dealbreaker. What grade she would likely get in each subject is important too.
Last point, Spanish and the other languages change quite a bit at A level ( someone already mentioned this) so she should check what is coming up will appeal to her.
The person you are seeing today should be unbiased and knowledgeable, hope it goes well.

Further maths is useful for some degree subjects (Maths, Physics, Engineering) but not for others. He may have mainly been thinking that doing 4 A levels is a lot (which it is, and may not help her UCAS applications) but that if one of the 4 is FM that will be a bit more manageable for someone very good at Maths.

Two of my A-levels were maths and French. My brother did maths, 2 sciences and Spanish at A-level, and went on to study Medicine at Oxford. I think a language is a great addition to her other A-levels.

It's a shame she's not fluent in Spanish though, having lived there for a few years - does she have any Spanish friends or attend any clubs / activities that are majority local Spanish people? Living in Spain really should provide the opportunity to get fluent in the language regardless of whether she studies it at school or not.

Most universities only take into account 3 Alevels. I think her original choice sounds way more balanced than extra maths.

I studied a science subject at a top UK university and I’m now a university lecturer. In my opinion, the teacher’s advice is correct and further maths will be more beneficial to her than Spanish for her university entrance - not necessarily a requirement, but a positive.

However, she may wish to do Spanish for other reasons (eg your point about improvising her language skills in the country you’re living in) and that is absolutely fine. It’s perfectly normal for teachers to be focused on uni admission, while you’re looking at the broader picture. At the end of the day it’s her decision.

Being brutally honest after two years of living in Spain she should be able to converse in the language outside school. Friends lived in Spain for a few years then France both children and they became fluent within two years. Both went on post university to work in an international field one in finance, one in international translation.

My DS had a passion for marine biology unfortunately there were few paid jobs and the pay was poor anyway. So look at careers post university too.

I'm with your daughter in this instance

I have always liked maths and became an accountant but hated further maths..

She needs to follow what she is interested in regardless if that means top university or not!

There are so many European multilingual students at uni in the U.K. I don’t think Spanish A-level is going to be as impressive as you imagine. I expect if she’s living in Spain the uni will assume she can speak the language fluently anyway.

He has offered her advice based on his academic experience. Your dd must make up her own mind. You offered her advice too.

I would guess that the Head is thinking she is Oxford/Cambridge material and they are going to prefer FM over Spanish if she's planning on studying a stem subject there - particularly maths or physics. I think I read that to do maths in one of them (Cambridge I think it was) you have to have done FM A-level if it is offered by your school.

If she wants to do Biology and isn't too bothered about going to Oxbridge then I'd stick with Spanish if she enjoys it as it will be more 'fun' than FM which a lot of people drop out of pretty quickly anyway. If she desperately wants to go to Oxford or Cambridge then I'd go FM.

My dcs are just done their A level or will be sitting it this year.
On paper you are right. There is no requirement for FM.

HOWEVER, my experience is that, in reality, having FM is actually important and will make a difference to her application.
I also agree that it will give her a better grounding to study science afterwards.

Downside for doing FM is that it will require much more work from her than if she is doing Spanish. (Or she could do it a year ahead when she is lower 6 if she is fluent enough. That’s what my dc did - bilingual child in the U.K.)

I did Maths, Chemistry and a language for my A levels as they were my favourite/best subjects - I have an undergrad degree, a Masters and a PhD in biological science all done at top UK universities. I really feel that the language gave me an edge over other candidates during my uni interviews, and I also took some additional classes in the language during my undergrad and spent a year abroad there as part of my degree. I would encourage her to stick with Spanish and forget FM, unless she wants to do a Maths degree I'm not sure FM is worth it IMO