Is it true that clever people go to 6th form and people who aren't go to college

[thistimeiknowitsforreal]

Evening all,

It was always drummed into me that after GCSE`s that if you are intelligent you went to or stayed at school and went to 6th form depending on your previous circumstances.

But if you weren't good enough you went to college instead.

Whats your experience in this area ?

Also my DH works in a college which has a college campus and a sixth form campus which recently merged into one. He says it's nicer as the unused picnic benches now get used at lunch times with a level students sitting outside studying rather than the usual rabble

Where I’m from none of the schools have sixth forms so you either went to sixth form college to do A Levels (and then usually university) or vocational college to do a BTEC/practical course like childcare or hairdressing etc. More a question of how academic you were than how intelligent as those aren’t necessarily the same thing.

Can you point me to the source for your statistics wombat?

I haven’t got a specific link I can give you. if you look at Oxbridge and RG Uni access pages, they display data which shows where their intakes come from - break down if nos from independent schools, grammars,colleges etc.

Another good source is the Sutton Trust which looks at access and impact of socio economic background and prior educational institution.

Again, the suggestion isn’t that clever people don’t go to college, simply that colleges take the majority of lower achievers as vocational is less available in schools. Also, that very selective unis are strongly populated by ex school students. Those in selective school 6th forms in particular (independent and state Grammar) are more likely to apply to more selective unis in first place. At 6th Form level, these are a bigger proportion of those of the cohort in education than lower down the age range. Lots of parents in some areas will pay for 6th Form but not the rest of school. Almost all of this private provision in in schools. Selective state schools also take in extra high achievers to their 6th forms whilst managing out the lower achieving students who can go to other schools or colleges. It is difficult for parents to think of the national picture, because whatever the local provision is and that of friends’ experiences often feels like the norm and people forget that there can be very different experiences by region and also amongst socio-economic groupings. Some parents don’t know any kids who went to college and likewise, some don’t know any who did 6th form in a school. People focus on their own or known experiences - this bias can distort appreciation of the full and wider picture. It’s entirely normal as people usually over weigh their own experience when thinking about broader questions.

Here’s a useful report
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/860135/Destinations_main_text_2020_REV.pdf

It looks at the issue of students sustaining education after KS4. The focus isn’t quite the focus of this thread, but part way in, you see breakdowns of attendance at school and colleges etc.

Interestingly you also see destinations based on prior attainment. It shows that 55% of students with high prior attainment at GCSE were in schools. This is far higher than those with middle and low attainment. Destinations of those with middle or low attainment were less to schools and more to other locations. It’s not surprising. They go to venue that offer appropriate courses for their prior attainment. Of course, those venues also offer things for high achieving students such as A Levels and often offer a broader choice, which might include the less traditional A Levels, which statistically are more likely to be taken by those with lower starting attainment. As identified in the report, those with high attainment are more likely to go to schools. Rightly or wrongly, schools are associated in many minds with a more formal approach and higher academic achievement and given the choice, those who have school options locally to them, who have been successful in schools 11-16 often opt for the known, tried and tested experience and continue with it. Again, it’s not all and clearly many are ready for something different and want to move on, plus local provision varies a lot and in some areas it’s the college that offers the more selective and high achieving option….but that’s not the norm across the country.

That link hasn’t really given me the info I was looking for.

The Oxford stats are interesting. 15% of fe college students offered a place compared to 19% of grammar school applicants and 19% of comp school applicants.

But a really small number applying. Something is putting them off, I suspect from my knowledge of students round here, that it’s the feeling that Oxford isn’t for the likes of us. These kids are often getting the grades, but go to local universities regardless of their standing due to money, family, the general culture of stay at home.

Identical Oxford acceptance rates from grammars, comps & 6th form colleges though. (Over 3 years)

Yes, as I said the data isn’t focused on the question this thread asks, but still some useful info.

Loads of threads about access arrangements and programmes to boost applications and interest from those less traditionally likely to apply to Oxbridge. As you say, lots of barriers and cultural sense of it not being ‘for the likes of us’. It exists amongst students, their families and teachers too - in many schools/colleges , there won’t be anyone with direct experience of Oxbridge.

If there was data for students staying at school or going to college depending on parents’ educational experience, I think those with parents with prior RG/Oxbridge degrees would be found even more in school 6th forms.

That study shows something about socio economic background/disadvantage too and where people spend their 6th forms. Those from lower socio-economic backgrounds might not be less intelligent, but they certainly have lower attainment at GCSE, so on a very braid basis, this is another indication of where people go for 6th Form. As is shown, those with low attainment and from disadvantaged backgrounds are more likely to drop out from their 6th form provision too. You can see differences in drop out rates in different institutions. Schools have lower drop out rates. And A Level courses have lower drop out rates than vocational. When prior attainment is lower and there is disadvantage, drop out is lower. Given colleges have a bigger proportion with lower attainment than school 6th forms, this is to be expected….and then fuels perceptions of colleges and schools and partly explains why given the choice a number of parents who value traditional provision and are very interested in looking at attendance, drop out, results etc might encourage their children to be in school 6th Forms. Again, talking on macro level and not about individuals or areas, or making any suggestion that any type of provision is lesser in any sense.

ComeAway, yes identical figures. But don’t forget you’d have to add in those from independents too, who although taking fewer places than they used to, still take far more than the 20% of 6th formers they represent. These are pretty much all independent school 6th forms and not colleges.

Lots of people have little or no experience of independents and forget about this fairly large group of 6th formers out there. School 6th formers. If you wanted to exclude them from discussion you could, and clearly then amongst state students, school pupils will be a lesser proportion of the total than if looking at all students. But given that these are still 16-19s if you exclude them, 1/5 is a big group to exclude from the discussion. Quite a number of them also were educated in all or part of their previous education in state schools. Some are opting to pay fees for the 2 year period because they can afford 2 years and because they think it’s worth it. There is ongoing discussion about whether Unis will increasingly favour state school applicants and make paying for 6th form less worth it. Contextual offers though don’t just go to all state school students, but those who have the flags on their ucas - no parent previously degree educated, state school with v poor higher education history etc. This certainly isn’t the leafy Comp or state Grammar.

My daughter attended a vocational independent school & college (independent colleges exist too) & my son an academic one (until we removed him) so I hadn’t forgotten about the sector, just felt it best to compare the state options available to most.

I didn't do A levels but did btec in 2004-2006

The sad fact is that someone does something like that a college will be seen as less bright than someone who does A levels

I went to sixth form at my school. It was really small and limited classes so a lot of my friends travelled to the nearest city to do art and languages.etc. I think they were all cleverer than me! We got to wear our own clothes though. There were only three of us in my law course, about 12 in English lit and language and maybe 20 at a push in psychology.

@WombatChocolate

I think whilst you note that people are failing to recognise their experience from the wider picture, you are failing to distinguish between sixth form colleges, tertiary colleges and general FE colleges. They are very different beasts and cannot be lumped together under "colleges" as you have done.

Back in 2010, there was a big study on the effectiveness of sixth form study, and the study concluded that sixth form colleges were the most effective, followed by schools, followed by FE colleges. And this was true for the brightest students.

"The type of institution seems to matter most for higher achieving pupils taking A-levels: When we look separately at higher ability students, sixth form colleges add more value at A level than school sixth forms, which in turn add more value than general FE colleges. For higher achieving pupils taking A levels only, 6th form colleges add around 90 additional QCDA points at A level as compared to schools, whilst FE colleges add 67 fewer points than schools." (1)

This study replicates other data going back to the 90s, but again, some thoughts as to the reasons are:

"Sixth form colleges have proven to be very successful in preparing students for higher education and the world of work. Indeed, there is research to show that students at sixth form colleges are more likely to achieve top grades at A-level than those who stay on at school. This may be due in part to the fact that sixth form colleges employ teachers that specialise in A-level provision and have more experience working with students in the 16-18 age bracket." (2)

And indeed, more research has shown smaller sixth forms to be less effective in teaching students. (3)

Having taught in the past few years in an FE College, a school with a small struggling sixth form, an OFSTED outstanding school (in all categories) with very large sixth form (600+ students) and now in a sixth form college, I would agree with the points in 2. I would say of the staff I am with now, those in 6FC are the most academic I have worked with (almost all have masters or doctorates), they are subject specialists and they are devoted to A level teaching. No conflict of interests with lower school requirements.

So I don't think you can say schools are better, the evidence suggests otherwise. However, given the small number of 6FC (there's about 50 in the national association of 6FC) the numbers of them going on to HE etc will be skewed. Students at 6FC are less likely to be working class, whereas students in FE are more likely to be working class, so hard to make generalisations about progression.

(1) - cee.lse.ac.uk/ceedps/ceedp124.pdf

(2) www.educatemagazine.com/sixth-form-a-stepping-stone-to-success/

(3) www.thetimes.co.uk/article/big-sixth-forms-get-better-results-with-less-money-study-finds-jlmzl0fbt

Where I lived, school finished at year 11 and everyone had to go to college, or join a school in a neighbouring borough that did have 6th form.

My DDs school has 6th form but it is selective, I think you have to get around 4 or 5s at GCSE to stay, and they recommend college for some students. I (naively) thought everyone would just stay at the same school if they chose to do A levels.

No

I grew up In south Oxfordshire and my school didn't have a sixth form, and to the best of my knowledge, neither did any of the other secondaries in the area so we had no choice but to go to college if we wanted to go through further education.

Aren't they the same thing?
I went to the local 6th form college after my GCSE's because that was the only option.
There was no option to 'stay at school' school was over?

Not all schools have the option to just stay.

I have 2 1st class honours degrees so can't be that dense.

I didn't go to 6th form at my ultra academic all girls grammar school, and instead went to a performing arts school for college and did my BTec. This was 1996-1998.

I'm smart as fuck, but 6th form couldn't offer me anything close to what I wanted to do.

A college that aligned with my career goals helped shape me. I felt like an adult, recognized teaching methods that helped me excel and studied my arse off.

I think the views of intelligence and education have changed given the standard Victorian education does not, in any way, help shape humans to work in a modern society.

My school didn't have a 6th form. We all went to college whether we were doing A levels, GNVQs or BTECs.

IME A Levels were for those who wanted to go and do an academic type degree whereas I went to college because I wanted to do art. But I was intelligent with good marks at school. Less to do with intelligence and more what you want to do after 18. There's probably an overlap of course. But no, I don't think college is a second rate option. They do tend to offer more vocational courses although mine did a levels as well.

Mommandme, interesting stuff.

Yes, I see the point about teacher in 6FC being totally focused on teaching their A Level subjects and therefore having lots of expertise in getting people through A Levels.

The study you mention talks about adding value and also about higher ability students. I wonder though what proportion of high ability students from the whole cohort 6FC attract. The question isn’t so much as about what they deliver and outcomes (although of course important) but the OP asked about where people go. You mention there being 50 6FC in the organisation that has most of them together, and I know they are often quite large, but I wonder overall what proportion of 16-19s are in them and what proportion of those with prior high attainment at GCSE.

Much of the focus has been on high attainers and where they went. Funnily everyone who is talking about their own experience as sixth formers (often many moons ago) or that of their kids is of the high ability bracket and not the lower ability! Key Q is where do the lower ability students go? You mention more working class background children in FE and tertiary, and although that of course doesn’t fully equate to lower prior attainment, there will be links with more from working class background having lower attainment at GCSE than those from middle class backgrounds. Lower ability students tend to go for vocational courses. The 6FC I know of, which are successful at A Level, also offer a range of BtEC and other vocational stuff too. So they are attracting BOTH the bright orioles attainers to their A Level programmes and ALSO the lower attainers. Schools on the other hand with purely an A Level programme or possibly an espxtremely small alternative offering tend to lose their lower attainers at 16. So going back to the overall Q - if schools (and especially the Grammarns and Independnet schools tend to hold onto their bright students and across the full cohort there some kind of mix (although still no suggestion that as many of the able prior attainers go to college compared to schools - however well 6FC actually do in terms of outcomes) whilst pretty much all of the lower attainers go to college, it seems that on a national scale and taking the country as a whole (instead of focusing on individual areas which often don’t have school 6th forms anyway) the assertion is actually broadly right still??

"however well 6FC actually do in terms of outcomes) whilst pretty much all of the lower attainers go to college, it seems that on a national scale and taking the country as a whole (instead of focusing on individual areas which often don’t have school 6th forms anyway) the assertion is actually broadly right still??"

I honestly don't think you can make any national generalisations, because the local picture is too varied.

In areas where everyone leaves school at 16 (Hampshire for example) most bright students will go onto college.

In other areas, it's harder to get into some elite sixth form colleges than it is to stay on at the school sixth form (hills road being an example, although you'd have to be outside of the CAP)

Some areas are now developing the elite private sixth form colleges... so again, these can take from other independent schools.

Where I live, it depends on the school. For example, at my small school sixth form all the brighter ones left (mostly to sixth form college, some to other sixth forms), the weakest got apprenticeships or went into FE, and the weaker ones stayed on at the sixth form.

I don't think you can make a generalisation as the national picture is too mixed, as have been seen on this thread.

Has anyone ever gone from a selective grammar school to college ?