Is it true that clever people go to 6th form and people who aren't go to college

[thistimeiknowitsforreal]

Evening all,

It was always drummed into me that after GCSE`s that if you are intelligent you went to or stayed at school and went to 6th form depending on your previous circumstances.

But if you weren't good enough you went to college instead.

Whats your experience in this area ?

At my DS's school you had to have certain grades and numbers of GCSEs eg five Cs or above, (or whatever today's equivalent is) before you could get in to the sixth form. And if you didn't perform you could be kicked out at the end of the first term, or at the end of the first year.
But where I now live there are two very highly respected sixth form colleges, thry are very selective in their entrance requirements, they then kick out the kids who don't work, and as a result get large numbers of the remainder into Oxbridge.
So they're not all for the less bright children.

good lord no.... I was smart and challenged boundaries and pushed and was kindly asked not to return to 6th form -went to college instead... I pushed uniform rules, tried to discuss recent politics, understood that teachers dont always know more than me....

I choose sixth form as I needed grades and I did not make the grades needed for college.

It was a common trope trotted out when I was at school.

in all honesty very few people at that age know exactly what they want to do.

the main difference I have seen is that in 6th forms they are usually more selective and as such can be harder to get into and the schools often push the students more, flip side of that is some schools if they feel you won’t hit certain grades will pressure students to drop out /go to college in order to not hit their rankings.

coleges on the other hand is a lot more about independent learning, and as such is a very good transition between school and uni.

however for those who do need a bit of a push every now and again they can just fall through the gaps.

neither way is better and it really depends on the mentality of the student as to which would suit them better, and the attitudes of the school or college to how they manage their students

Not true anymore.

where I live we have the only two grammar schools for miles around. Both have sixth forms. The cleverest of those go on to the sixth form college (listed 10th in rankings last year) in the next town as it’s so good. Those grammar school sixth form places are filled by comprehensive kids that didn’t make the grade at 11 but who parents want them to have xxx grammar school on their UCAS application.

It might not be true in individual local areas. Each area has different balances if school to college places for 6th Form study. Taken nationally though, the average GCSE per subject result will be higher in schools than colleges.

It’s not an insult to colleges or an insult to vocational courses. It’s a function if lots of historic and sociologist-economic factors which feed into determining which schools kids go to at 11, local provision for 11-18 education, outcomes at 16 and choices made/options available to different students at that point.

Lots of people seem to be muddling their own experiences, or their local offer, with the national picture. Of course, loads of clever individuals go to colleges and in some areas, due to the way provision for 16-19 education is structured, most kids go to college. But this is not the case across the country.

Perhaps another way to look at it would be to look at universities. Those at uni could be a good substitute for ‘clever’ (and we are having to take a measurable method for ‘clever’ so that means GCSEs, A Levels, Uni places, Degree results….of course there are lots of people who don’t have these who are clever, but we need a measurable method) If you look at universities and especially the more selective ones, you will find a larger proportion of students come from 6th forms in schools. Again, lots are from colleges, but schools take more of the places.

Look at the Oxbridge websites which show admissions data and you can see where students originate from. It’s widely known that a small group of independent schools send more students to Oxbridge, than a large number of other institutions added together. These include both schools and colleges. Amonsgt RG unis, independent, state Grammar and leafy Comps are over -represented….which is hardly surprising when you think about it. Some 6th Form colleges are highly selective and also extremely successful in achieving top grades and send large numbers to RG unis. However, schools send more.

The fact MN posters attended college or their kids did or their friend in the next town did while being really clever, doesn’t alter the national reality.

The thing is though at 6th form you can`t train to be a hairdresser, plumber or chef.

At college you can

My child's 6th form requires decent grades to get in but they never wanted to stay on and can't wait to go to college whatever their grades.

The fact that our local 6th form college offers any combination of subjects is a big draw rather than at ds’s school 6th form where there are limited option columns.

The thing is though at 6th form you can`t train to be a hairdresser, plumber or chef.
*At college you can

Then it's about choosing an option that best aligns with your career aspirations rather than intelligence.

I didn’t have the opportunity for either 6th form or college- mid 80’s and I needed to get a job rather than stay in education. But I recently worked with a highly intelligent young woman who is studying law. She went to a grammar school but didn’t like like so chose the local college over 6th form at the grammar school, hardly ever turned for lessons, got very good A-level results and chose a local Uni over the Russel Group Uni that offered her a place.

DS school doesn't have a sixth form. He will be going to a sixth form college. In our local authority (Bath and North East Somerset) some schools have 6th forms, some don't. He will be travelling into another local authority area (City of Bristol) to attend partially on the basis that it's geographically closer to us than any in BANES.

My DCs school doesn’t have a 6th form so they have no choice but to go to college for A levels, so no, it’s not true

Not all colleges, some just offer A levels like a school would

@Hoppinggreen they would be 6th form colleges so sane as a sixth form at school.

Yes I know but OP just said “college” , not which types.
Some colleges are vocational and some are academic so “clever” people DO go to college

Not correct. At my son's college they offer a full range of academic A levels plus an honours programme for those with high grade GCSE's looking towards Oxbridge/RG/medical AND a range of vocational courses such as Btecs at Levels 2 & 2 in performing arts, construction, healthcare, floristry, hairdressing etc etc.

There is a separate 6th form college that offers A levels and Btecs too but the Btecs are the smaller 1/2 A level equivalent ones. They don't do the plumbing/hairdressing type ones.

Not where I grew up as I can't actually remember any of the schools having a sixth form. Everyone went to college although some colleges were known for being more academic than others.

Where we live now yes absolutely. The only girls who don't stay in at my daughters girls grammar tend to be ones who want to do sport (not offered) or ones who didn't get the grades to stay (minimum of 6 grade 6)

So to give an example. Our local high school offers the following subjects

Maths, Chemistry, Physics, Biology, English Lit, History, Geography, Psychology, Business Studies, Photography, Art, PE, Computer Science, Sociology & AS Level Further maths. One AS level language can be taken as a 4th subject

You cannot take Maths & History or Maths & Psychology, you can't take English & Chemistry or either of them with Computer Science, You can't take Art & Business studies or Art & Biology.

The FE college ds goes to offers 26 different A level subjects in almost any combination of subjects including a choice of English Lang, English Lit or Lang/Lit

Again, people seem to be missing the point, that despite lots of clever people (measured by GCSE results for simple measurable data, A Level results and where people end up at Uni) those from school sixth forms are more highly represented.

Think RG unis - lots of clever people - more from schools than colleges - factor in the 20% of the population dictated privately at 6th Form level (in schools mostly) and all the state Grammars and highly selective leafy comps sending people to RG unis, then you can see this is reality.

Its not to say that clever people don’t go to college too, or that in some areas, all the clever people don’t go to college - because there aren’t any 6th forms in schools or only a tiny number, or that there aren’t lots on MN or their kids who are clever and went to college. But nationally, if you think of those with grades 7-9 at GCSE as being the clever ones, you’ll find many are in schools. Colleges have their share if them too, but given most schools focus mostly on A Levels, those who don’t do A Levels by default are more likely to go to college. Therefore the majority of those who do t achieve grades suitable for A Level go to college. With higher ability it is more mixed - yes some go to college, but lots remain in schools too.

The mire academic the Uni, the higher proportion of kids from schools rather than colleges you’ll find.

Its no criticism of colleges nor suggestion that those doing A Levels at college can’t do really well or are limited in any way. It’s simply a fact that whilst those doing A Levels have a choice of 2 places to study - school or college, those doing vocational usually just have college.

In my area, including surrounding boroughs, A levels are only offered at school sixth forms. Sixth form colleges do not offer A levels, only lower level qualifications which would not count for university entry.

What year did you take your A Levels, OP? I wonder if it's a bit of a dated attitude. My school had no 6th form so we had to either change school or go the the local FE college. I chose the college (loved it mixing with all sorts of people and ages) and there were raised eyebrows at this because I was bright. This was the late 80s.

It's defo more studious to go to a sixth form college than just a college. This would be 'regular' courses mainly a levels. These often need higher gcse grades to be accepted. College tends to be more vocational type courses such as btec etc and you wouldn't have to have higher gcse passes so yes it's probably loosely true. This is a moot point though if all you ever wanted to do more than anything in the world was be a florist (for example) as the most appropriate course for you would be at college

I agree that A levels are seen as more academic than BTECs or NVQs or whatever 16-19 year olds do these days (I don't have kids).
However, that doesn't tell you much about how clever someone is and of course some FE colleges have A levels and some schools don't have sixth forms...