3 or 4 A-levels?

[Amboseli]

DS's school make them all do 4 A-levels in year 12. But they can then drop one in year 13.

DS is capable of 4 A-levels but is it worth it? If he drops one he will need to do Gold D of E instead which I feel would be better use of his time, not just for university applications.

He's going into year 11 so doing GCSEs next year but his school have given a talk on A-levels and want them to start thinking about them now.

He wants to do computer science at university and will be doing maths, further maths and physics and is likely to choose economics as the 4th A level.

I would ordinarily say no don’t because universities only require 3 so it’s better to do 3 well than 4 averagely. However, Maths and further maths aren’t really counted as two A levels by universities I don’t think, as further maths is an extension. Can I ask why if he wants to do computers isn’t he doing that as an A level?

I didn't know FM wasn't a separate A level.

His school don't offer computer science as an A level unfortunately. Although having spoken to a university lecturer friend, he said maths and physics at A level are far more important than computer science even if you want to do a CS degree.

It is a separate A level but I don’t think it’s classed as such for UCAS points- many who do maths do FM as well, so do “four” but it’s the other three that universities will base their offer on.

FM and Maths are usually thought of as less time consuming as any other pair of A levels, so he might find he can continue with all 4 without excessive workload. Nobody needs 4 however, and he if he takes 4 he may end up with an offer based on 4 grades which might be less than desirable. DoE will not help with applications but as you say may benefit him in other ways. Really it will depend how much he enjoys his subjects and whether taking 4 will negatively impact on his favoured 3. And he can't know that until he is in Y12.

@MrsElijahMikaelson1 I've just looked it up and it's a slightly strange sounding situation where it is an extension of maths but does give you separate UCAS points for university entrance. His school will advise I guess.

I know from when I was doing A levels there were people doing maths, FM + one other and it was 3 A-levels. But this was 30+ years ago!

When two of the four are maths and FM, then doing 4 is fine

And strong maths opens up all comp sci courses to him.

FM absolutely is a full A level for UCAS and anyone else.

FM usually acts as a fourth.

Maths and Further Maths definitely are counted as completely separate A levels by all universties, including Oxbridge and Imperial. My dc did 3 A levels - Maths, FM and physics and received offers from all 5 unis on his UCAS form.

Thing is that sixth formers have a lot of free time if they only do three a levels. They often waste this time in my experience. Plus, people make the wrong choice, understandably, and often prefer their ‘4th’ a level, or do much better in that one than one of the others. Finally, he isn’t going to have a great breadth of education with maths, FM and physics being somewhat similar. Economics will give him a more rounded education.

Math does open doors for Computing.
However- Computing IS widely accepted for entry. Taking it at A level also gives more exposure to the subject.

Further Maths is definitely a separate A level and attracts the same number of points as any other A level. If he is high achieving then he may wish to apply say Cambridge where although they cannot make FM a requirement as not all schools offer it, there will be an expectation that you have it if the school offers it. When people talk of doing 3 rather than 4 to ensure you secure better grades one of those that can feasibly be continued is FM .

As you rightly say the more maths the better for a comp Sci degree.

If he is really good at maths I would plan for 4 with M and FM.

Ok so the consensus seems to be 4 including FM. And it's good to know that doing FM allows the time to do the 4th.

I'm keen for him to do economics as it's so useful for life in general well beyond university.

@LadyMacnet which uni did your DS choose and what subject is he studying out of interest?

I’d rather not say the uni as it is a bit identifying - but it is RG and Mech Eng (MEng route).

The other thing to consider will be whether he will want to do an EPQ and his extracurricular stuff that is related to his field of study. Universities now no longer want to read a hundred I’ve done my DofE gold-they are mainly interested in what extra you’ve done/are interested in about their subject. Very little of the personal statement is around that extra stuff. DD has even been advised to reduce her involvement in NYO down to one sentence!

I'm keen for him to do economics as it's so useful for life in general well beyond university

I loved economics and did it at university but it isn’t a “useful for life in general” type subject.

It depends, if your child is planning to apply to a university that goes by UCAS points, having 3 A levels plus an AS would be an advantage (as long as he gets the same grade)

If the courses your child is planning to apply require “essential subjects”, it is better to concentrate in getting good grades in 3.

Having said that, DS took the later option and frankly, he wasted any advantage doing only 3 subjects would have given him on the XBox.

If he is not sure what he wants to study yet, studying 4 subjects may give him more options to consider and a better chance of having the right A levels for what he decides to study after college.

I have mixed feelings about Further Maths. It is an advantage as you would have covered a good chunk of the maths you will learn in Year 1 of university so it makes for an easier start. But the disadvantage is that you may end up with a lower grade in it that prevents you going to your fist choice university, the other thing to consider is that most science/maths departments are no longer requiring a further maths a level (although they are very much welcome if they are predicted a high grade).

@MrsElijahMikaelson1 that's interesting and useful to know, thank you.

@GrandmasCat that's also very useful to know. Looking at Imperial for eg they specify grades rather than UCAS points with maths a level being essential and others classified as useful or recommended. Physics is recommended and economics is useful.

Maybe it's not worth doing the FM then.

I did notice though that if doing 3 A-levels unis required A A A but for 4 it was A* A A A.

So he needs to decide whether he's likely to get a better grade in FM or economics and choose according.

If he does 3 A-levels hopefully he'll spend his spare time learning about AI/robotics/quantum computing which are the areas he is thinking of working in and this should help his university application.

My dc are at an academically selective independent which is often near top in league tables. They are only allowed to do four if one is further maths (so if you don’t do maths you can only do three A Levels), you can’t do maths unless you have an 8/9 at gcse, they are not allowed to pick further maths if they only do 3 A levels. They all do EPQ. They’re told gold DofE is not going to benefit their ucas application in the slightest (but that it is good fun and gets them outside).

Have a look on university websites about personal statements.
Oxbridge are all about the extracurricular stuff about your proposed subject-in your case computers and are not interested in anything else.
RG say 75% about your subject and what you are interested in/extracurricular stuff related to your subject and 25% on anything else, so important to note. But most say that DofE is pretty much useful only to get you outside and doing something with your friends and is discounted other than that.
Further maths is fine but if that is part of your 3 A levels then you narrow your field considerably so if you include it then you’d have to do four IMO.

@HasaDigaEebowai thanks. I was really thinking of DofE to get DS outdoors and doing something constructive with his time instead of playstation, if he did 3 A-levels.

@MrsElijahMikaelson1 thank you, I will look at the uni websites. Could you please expand on what you mean you say doing FM is narrowing the field? Would it limit his uni choices?

No university asks for 4 A levels – not Oxbridge, not medicine or vet med. And universities aren’t interested in D of E either. The most useful extra activity over and above three A levels is an EPQ.

FM is not accepted as a separate A level for medicine or vetmed applications if only 3 A levels are talen as they are too similar, but they are accepted as a fourth A level.

However, FM is considered separately for maths based degrees, engineering and other degrees.