Shockingly high A level entry requirements

[AffronttoPronouns]

DD just finished her GCSE year 11, will be doing 4 A levels (FM, Maths, Physics, Chemistry) at 6th form with the view to going on to doing STEM related degree at a RG university.

So we started looking into university courses and were shocked at the entry requirements - mostly A*s and As are required for UCL, Imperial for example. DD is finding it very daunting, overwhelming and can't get her head round how she will achieve, what seems at the current time, these impossible grades. I was also shocked as I did engineering myself many years ago, and offers then were BBBs and BBC. I also remember thinking at lower 6th, A levels seem extremely difficult, but somehow I grew into it and managed to attain AAB grades at the end of it.

I have tried to assure DD not to panic, that she needs to focus on working hard and doing her best, don't be afraid to ask teachers for help during her A levels, and that she will rise to the challenge and grow into it.

Any words of wisdom or anyone with similar experiences to share would be greatly appreciated. TIA.

If you want to do that sort of subject at a top uni, those are the requirements.

RG unis aren't the be-all and end-all though. Other courses at other unis often rank as highly. They have just as good employment rates etc.

I too went to uni many years ago when only the very few got As (no A stars existed). But at the time only very clever children did A levels, and most people didn't do a degree - the goal posts have moved considerably!

What sort of GCSE results is your DD expecting - there is usually a pretty good correlation.

My DD did a Maths degree at a RB uni. She got A A levels and found her degree very hard. She also got 10 A GCSEs.
A friend of hers did the same but only had Bs at A level, he dropped out as he found it impossibly hard.

Grade inflation - not doing down the hard work of any of our teens, but it is a thing. Good info/diagram on wiki here.
"...a 1980s C candidate would now be awarded an A*/A."

So it's not as impossible as you might think - and also, as a PP said, a top ten Russell Group university is not the only route to a good degree and a successful career.

Well, she’s making a sound start by having maths and physics to support the chemistry, and maths plus FM to support the physics. That’ll help quite a bit.

Is it engineering she wants to do?
There are some fantastic accredited degrees at non RG universities with excellent links to industry.
Also she should look at the newer developing engineering degrees such as Cyber and Digital transformation as these sometimes have lower entry requirements than the traditionally popular Aerospace or Mechanical engineering courses, but still have excellent career prospects as these are where the skills gaps are

Thanks all for your comments.

She's primarily interested in Chemistry and Maths, she did Computer Science GCSE.

Which universities are these Cyber and Digital engineering degrees? @FlibbertigibbetArmadillo

I did the traditional mechanical engineering degree at the university of Birmingham, but that was in the 90s.

The ones I am aware of personally are still being written as very new subjects but should be live by time your daughter applies.

Encourage her to look at
www.engc.org.uk/education-skills/course-search/recognised-course-search/
This lets you search all the degrees that are accredited by the engineering council, which is so important for and Eng degree.
Just browsing that will let her see the the huge range of topics engineering covers with a variety of entry requirements.

It is actually international women in engineering day tomorrow! There are lots of virtual events taking place that will showcase the sorts of jobs she could have and might be inspiring.
This website list a lot of the things happening tomorrow
www.wes.org.uk/

Your examples are some of the more competitive unis and courses. If you look through others then some may drop to B grades although without A or above in Maths technical subjects may be a challenge and require additional Maths modules to be taken. Some degrees will include practical work placements.

UCL and Imperial are very high ranking though. Plenty of unis will give lower offers. And often in practice they are even lower.

DD got in on clearing with BCC to a uni whose offer for her course is ABB.

Also don't compare with yourself years ago. I gained ABB and only one student in my grammar school did better. No A* to be got and exams were very different. ABB would not be at all amazing today in a comprehensive sixth form, though great grades of course. Ds2 is hoping for AAB to get into an RG uni for science.

Supply & demand, OP. Far more people get A and A grades now than in the days when you were applying (well, obviously, there was no A grade then). Thirty-eight percent of A-Level grades in 2020 were A* or A and 25% in 2019, when they were based on exams. There is only so much capacity for engineering students at a university: they have to control numbers of students somehow.

It's worth your daughter having a good look at the full range of universities offering her favoured courses: the most prestigious names don't necessarily equal the best courses. She may well be capable of getting A* and A grades but it's nice to know there are very good options open if you get into year 13 feeling like you're on course for A and B grades.

Maths, FM and physics all overlap and so are very good subjects to take together. There are online transition from GCSE to A levels which she can look at over summer to help her bridge the gap.

Ds's "predicted" grades for A levels which were maths, FM, physics and computer science were worked out from his GCSEs, so add all the numbers together, divide by the number taken and get the same predicted grade for all subjects.

The main thing is knowing that A levels will be a bit more work. If she puts the effort in at the start then she can do this. Utilise the teachers and any additional work set, Ds had compulsory homework but also wider knowledge work which helped. This was not compulsory but he did them to secure his knowledge. She can maintain a high grade and even increase her grade. It is down to work ethic and asking for help if needed. So many resources online such as alevelmathsrevision.com/maths-categorised-exam-questions/ with explanations and questions.

You cannot compare your A levels with the A levels of today. Dh and I both went to uni in the early 90s when less than 20% of people went. Now it is 50%. Grades for top unis are high because the competition is high.

I’m betting there were no A* when you did your A levels, though.

See how she goes nearer the time but it might be cheaper and easier (and more worthwhile) for her to study engineering at an Ivy League in the US or an IIT in India. A friend of mine her daughter got ABB and while that wasn’t good enough to get into the UK uni she wanted, it was good enough at MIT and IIT (she has links to neither countrt). MIT won the business because they gave her a scholarship, a grant, and all in all it will cost her parents £3,000 a year for her to study there.

I'd agree with the PP who said that it's not tge end of the world if you don't go to an RG university. Obviously everyone should try to reach their potential and there's absolutely nothing wrong with aiming for the most competitive courses if that's what you want but you are not doomed if it's not what you want or you don't get there. I think schools sometimes push pupils in particular directions because it's how they are judged as institutions, but that can unfortunately undermine pupils who can't/don't want to follow that path.
My DH found himself in the position of not making it into his chosen University many years ago. He ended up going to a polytechnic on clearing. He is now internationally respected in his particular field of and nobody gives a toss where his degree was from.
Not that I'm denying that it's helpful to get onto a "top flight" course, but it isn't the be all and end all. We all develop at different rates. Many of us don't find our passions or understand our potential until we are adults. To any teenager I'd say try your very best at school but remember that what you achieve and where you go at 18 does not define you or guarantee the rest of your life.

@Ozanj

See how she goes nearer the time but it might be cheaper and easier (and more worthwhile) for her to study engineering at an Ivy League in the US or an IIT in India. A friend of mine her daughter got ABB and while that wasn’t good enough to get into the UK uni she wanted, it was good enough at MIT and IIT (she has links to neither countrt). MIT won the business because they gave her a scholarship, a grant, and all in all it will cost her parents £3,000 a year for her to study there.

With all due respect, I’m struggling to see how someone who couldn’t get into an RG university here in the U.K for Engineering is going to waltz into MIT in the U.S, then awarded a scholarship (academic is implied) and a grant! Your friend is not telling you the whole story.

That honestly sounds normal to me. To study at a top university doing an academic course, top marks would usually be required. It’s to ensure that the student is up to scratch and will be able to cope on the course.

As someone who went to UoL in the 1990s all my friends at Imperial, Kings and UCL on science degrees had these kind of A-Level grades. These have always been some of the highest ranking science degree courses and as such had grade requirements to match.

If she’s interested in Chemistry then look carefully at the requirements. With her combination of subjects the offers are often a little lower. Imperial is high but is not as well regarded for Chem as for other subjects anyway. Look at Warwick AAA, York AAB, Bath AAB, Loughborough ABB for example.

Unis tend to accept lower grades than they say on their websites. Take them with a large pinch of salt. Especially if it’s a science or maths or engineering or languages. RG unis too. I’ve seen it over and over again.

What they say they want, and what they will actually accept, are two different things.

The RG Uni attend (as a mature student doing an Access Science course) wanted all Distinctions.

I got all Distinctions in the Biology modules, and all Merits in the Chemistry ones (not my strength at all).

As I was applying for Microbio, they accepted me anyway. I haven't struggled with the course (just finished my final year), gained mainly 1:1s with the odd 2:1. And have just been accepted for a Masters there.

Something to aim for and focus the mind on studying.

I’m trying not to stress Dd with the big expectations, we have talked about uni’s and school are pushing her to apply for top uni’s. She got A*, A, C in her end of year exams but needs AAA for Oxford, though it’s not her first choice and she doesn’t feel confident in being offered a place at her first 2 choices. We have looked a uni’s that will take BBB or lower as a back up plan.

It's grade inflation I'm afraid. The top Uni's only want what they perceive as the "top" pupils, so if they can fill their courses with A* students, that's what they'll do, even if those with A or B grades would be just as capable.

But, you also need to look at actual grades for places. They may say A on their entry requirements, but then go on to give offers to those with A's, and may give places to offer holders with A predictions but who actually achieved say A,A,B, etc. I can't remember where the information is given, but I've seen some Uni courses with a A,A,A requirement where the actual grades achieved by those on the courses was typically A,A,B or even A,B,C.

Nothing is cast in stone. No harm in applying to a course with high grade requirements if you're "somewhere near". There's a lot of flexibility at some Unis. Best to talk to some of the admission tutors
to see what they say before wasting your 3/4/5 UCAS applications though!

Alternatively, you could look at prior year's "clearing" offer webpages. They can give a good indication of what courses are available which start as high grade requirements but which are open to much lower through clearing. (If they're accepting 1 or 2 grades lower in clearing, they may give an offer that's slightly less than "required" just to fill their courses before clearing.

You also need to look at grade boundaries for each subject. It's not like GCSE where you need 85%+ for a grade 9.

Many A levels have around 75% as the A* grade boundary, Physics even lower.

Rather than your DD getting disheartened by talk of A or A* grades, why not get her to aim for consistently averaging 75% in her work, tests, mocks, etc., which is a more realistic target.

Aiming for 15 out of 20 doesn't sound as bad as aiming for an A* does it?

Especially when they've been conditioned at GCSE to be aiming for over 90% to get the grade 9!

They're hardly "shockingly" high? They're the necessary grades 🤷🏻‍♀️
If she's daunted at A Level a STEM degree may not be for her.