Shockingly high A level entry requirements

[AffronttoPronouns]

DD just finished her GCSE year 11, will be doing 4 A levels (FM, Maths, Physics, Chemistry) at 6th form with the view to going on to doing STEM related degree at a RG university.

So we started looking into university courses and were shocked at the entry requirements - mostly A*s and As are required for UCL, Imperial for example. DD is finding it very daunting, overwhelming and can't get her head round how she will achieve, what seems at the current time, these impossible grades. I was also shocked as I did engineering myself many years ago, and offers then were BBBs and BBC. I also remember thinking at lower 6th, A levels seem extremely difficult, but somehow I grew into it and managed to attain AAB grades at the end of it.

I have tried to assure DD not to panic, that she needs to focus on working hard and doing her best, don't be afraid to ask teachers for help during her A levels, and that she will rise to the challenge and grow into it.

Any words of wisdom or anyone with similar experiences to share would be greatly appreciated. TIA.

It’s not a given but “good” universities with “good” graduate outcomes are likely to have well resourced specialist careers teams to assist students. Where I work students can have 1-1 and workshops on all sorts of assessments they’re likely to encounter, practise psychometric tests, interview skills, assessment centres, etc. This must help with “blind” recruitment even if the university reputation can’t.

@Weebleweeble yes you’re right... that’s what I have been explaining above. You can test for problem solving very effectively in assessment centres. I was really sceptical moving towards this recruitment approach, but now I’m convinced. We’ve had three excellent cohorts, who’ve made good progress and retention is also higher.

@Morred Yes and no. It’s got to be authentic otherwise recruiters see through it.

Personally I’m working on instilling the seven habits and emotional intelligence in my daughter (there is a child friendly programme). I’ve had a bit of a wobble about the lack of extra curricular activities she does, but I think I’ll be gifting her the best possible chance of success if I focus on these softer skills.

DD also did maths, physics and chemistry at A level. We looked at York, Lancaster and she even wrangled an interview at Cambridge before settling on St Andrews.

Shop around. Despite the high grades, universities need students.

@ToodlePipshh out of interest - what percentage of candidates have you had from bottom of the pile universities? Or even private ones (like the University of Arden)? I don't mean things like 'ex-polys' but universities like Bishop Grosseteste University?

There are a lot of perfectly good unis that don't have the 'brand name' (such as University of Bath, University of Stirling, Keele University). However there are also unis where the entry requirements and level of academic work required are so low that there is nothing extra compared to say a diploma or someone who had gotten a job straight out of school. In that case - why would you not just remove the degree requirements and open the role to anybody who passes the initial screening?

Also when you do this approach it's rolling basis - first in line to pass gets the job. I suppose it's no better or no worse than screening by uni name though.

[quote ToodlePipshh]@Morred Yes and no. It’s got to be authentic otherwise recruiters see through it.

Personally I’m working on instilling the seven habits and emotional intelligence in my daughter (there is a child friendly programme). I’ve had a bit of a wobble about the lack of extra curricular activities she does, but I think I’ll be gifting her the best possible chance of success if I focus on these softer skills.[/quote]
'Authentic' is a somewhat misleading term - of course you don't expect people to spout memorised answers but there's a way of structuring them to ensure that you demonstrate your capabilities. Even your recruitment emails advise people to 'use the STAR method' and give answers based on what the firms' key competencies are. Preparation is key. I know this because juniors I coached failed for 2 years when applying to Big4 firms. They figured out the formula and received at least 2 offers from the Big4 in their final year. So did I actually when I was a graduate - except I went to work for a different company instead. 'Interview technique' is a thing.

Also while habits and emotional intelligence are great - soft skills come with practice and interaction with other people....it's not the sort of things you teach yourself with books apps alone. Unlike technical exams :D

[quote ToodlePipshh]@Morred Yes and no. It’s got to be authentic otherwise recruiters see through it.

Personally I’m working on instilling the seven habits and emotional intelligence in my daughter (there is a child friendly programme). I’ve had a bit of a wobble about the lack of extra curricular activities she does, but I think I’ll be gifting her the best possible chance of success if I focus on these softer skills.[/quote]
Unless you’ve decided that your child’s future lies in the Big 4 and nowhere else I really wouldn’t centre this education on this guff. There are a lot of careers where the door will remain firmly closed if this is their sole focus. Extra currics, a good uni and string academics are key for the vast majority of careers.

Yep, I had an interview for Chemistry at Imperial in the late 80's and they wanted As, maybe a B then but basically said it was needed to cope with the course.

Tell her not to worry, do the work, see what happens and treat it all like going on a road trip, you may not end up quite where you expected but it'll be ok anyway. I went to a RG Uni in the end but with a shite A level result and got a mediocre degree. I've been elsewhere since with far better UG teaching. The top Unis are only into research...

@CastawayQueen You can’t prepare for the assessment centres so easily, sure some of it is generic, but the assessed tasks are specific to my service line and I’m involved in designing and facilitating them. We also set essay based pre-work. They are not assessed on the essay but their presentation of it. These are all based on real world projects.

I actually had to look on LinkedIn pages for unis as I really don’t give a hoot where my staff studied. I care about their current performance and attitude (which has been uniformly excellent since doing blind recruitment). Universities include Bristol, Lancaster, Cambridge, Bath, Keele, York, Loughborough, Queens Belfast. A few years ago, most people were Oxbridge, so it’s quite a change. I suppose it would be possible to have all Oxbridge success one year- it just depends on how the individuals fare in applying their knowledge.

In answer to your question, yes a degree is essential. But it’s being able to apply that degree which is key, as well as demonstrating curiosity and passion (essential for the job). We can take qual or quant backgrounds - we need both sets of skills.

@Flowers500 Emotional intelligence is already a key predictor of career success and will become even more important once AI really takes hold. It’s what sets people apart from machines - not technical expertise. Of course there are exceptions... but even a scientist has to work in a team, present and convince... write persuasive bids for funding and so on.

Being able to interpret and analyse data and think critically about how to apply in real-world to maximise the human experience, is also going to be key to many jobs in the AI future. Every job will be impacted... from doctors to care staff working in smart care homes, accountants and logistics staff. It’s already happening.

Going to a great uni doesn’t guarantee these skills .... you can be very good at learning and taking exams, but can’t think outside the box, can’t think like different types of customers/clients because you’ve grown up in a bubble. Companies that are not diverse lose out on innovation and profit.

No guff about it. It’s universally acknowledged that these skills are already in high demand by a wide range of employers.

I think you’re living in the past if you believe these characteristics are not as important as academic attainment... which really doesn’t get you very far without these critically important softer skills. Outside of academia, no one cares about your academic attainment or which uni you went to. I say that as someone who went to a top uni where the course entry requirement now appears to be A*AA. Literally no ones cares - it’s a stepping stone.

I wouldn’t worry about it. They will go to the university which is pitched at the right level for their grades. If it’s pitched too high, they’ll struggle and be miserable. Unless they have their heart set on a particular career pathway, a decent degree from a good university will still open many doors.

Their success in life will depend on how determined they are, their work ethic, their ability to spot opportunities, bring others along with them, problem solve and think innovatively.

The people I know who are most successful did not go to the best unis. I also know Oxbridge grads who haven’t been that successful (also know some that have).

University is only one factor. Soft skills and attitude/ passion are what really makes someone a success. That has to come from within and can’t be taught, but can be modelled by people around you.

Just looked up the grades for Birmingham and they are AAB, which with the A* coming in are equivalent to BBC, which is in line with the offers you were talking about.

As your daughter is taking physics can I recommend Isaac Physics summer programme you need to look at both the year 10 and 11 pages to cover the whole course as a great way to prepare for Alevel (physics teacher) isaacphysics.org/pages/summer_prog_year_10

[quote ToodlePipshh]@Flowers500 Emotional intelligence is already a key predictor of career success and will become even more important once AI really takes hold. It’s what sets people apart from machines - not technical expertise. Of course there are exceptions... but even a scientist has to work in a team, present and convince... write persuasive bids for funding and so on.

Being able to interpret and analyse data and think critically about how to apply in real-world to maximise the human experience, is also going to be key to many jobs in the AI future. Every job will be impacted... from doctors to care staff working in smart care homes, accountants and logistics staff. It’s already happening.

Going to a great uni doesn’t guarantee these skills .... you can be very good at learning and taking exams, but can’t think outside the box, can’t think like different types of customers/clients because you’ve grown up in a bubble. Companies that are not diverse lose out on innovation and profit.

No guff about it. It’s universally acknowledged that these skills are already in high demand by a wide range of employers.

I think you’re living in the past if you believe these characteristics are not as important as academic attainment... which really doesn’t get you very far without these critically important softer skills. Outside of academia, no one cares about your academic attainment or which uni you went to. I say that as someone who went to a top uni where the course entry requirement now appears to be A*AA. Literally no ones cares - it’s a stepping stone.[/quote]
It's true that emotional intelligence is as important as technical skill.
However every single one of the universities you listed have a decent reputation. For you it's a 'success' because you're comparing with 'Oxbridge' but none of them are what I'd consider 'no-name' unis. It isn't very hard to get into a decent university provided that you have a mix of A's and B's (maybe the odd C).

I'm actually very interested in the percentage of students from each uni because there is a marked difference in the quality of work expected. In the field where I trained in (half STEM half qual) the better universities covered more complex subject matter and required a higher standard of coursework. So for a student the university itself might have an effect other than being just a signal.

In any case this is not really relevant to OP's daughter as the subjects she wants to study are very academic. A good university is important because a lot of related careers require evidence of good academic skills. Of course as you mentioned communication skills are important but many people are the whole package. For these roles it's easier to sift by academic evidence first, and then look for EQ. They are competitive anyway so few grads even those from among top unis will make it.

Finally - an interesting thought - you mention that retention is now higher. Were all the Oxbridge grads just not making the cut - or leaving for better paid offers elsewhere?
If it's the latter then it's actually somewhat ironic... that because of their uni name they're being poached. And we are discussing how uni name doesn't matter

If you want to be an engineer you may well find that employers set their own exams. Which if you have a first in engineering from Imperial you will automatically ace, and if you have a lower 2:1 from a low uni you will struggle with. Soft skills are learned through work experience, they’re great to have but sorry if you’re going for a prestigious career you will be sitting exams and interviews that will be immeasurably easier with a top education.

There is also a point about retention, which a PP commented upon—getting great retention does not equal the best candidates, by a long long shot! In fact potentially the opposite, you’re getting candidates who will stick around rather than get immediately poached or with options to earn more elsewhere. Good from the employer’s perspective but I’d rather be the kid with all the options!

I'm a hiring manager for (mostly) graduate roles in financial services and am in broad agreement with @ToodlePipshh.

15-20 years ago the industry was focused upon just hiring the best number crunchers, who often turned out to be the quiet nerdy grads who spent 95% of their day sat by themselves in the corner dealing with figures.

Now, as we've shifted more and more towards client based work, we primarily look for social and communication skills. We want people who can do a good job of representing our company out in the wider world. It's assumed that anyone with a 2:1 or 1st from an appropriate course has the numerical skills required to succeed, so the degree is just a tick in a box really.

Nanny and toodle are both spot on. There’s been a big shift in the past 5 years, high academic attainment is not enough these days.

With AI (which will impact on everyone’s jobs in the next few years), it’s what makes us human that will make us stand out and ensure career success. Being able to understand people, read and apply data to human behaviour will be key to so many jobs in many sectors.

Lots of technical jobs will become obsolete as they will be overtaken by machines learning.

You have to forget about what you needed 30 years ago. Things have changed!!

Your dd should be checking what's needed for every course she wants to apply for. Lots of courses want A and A* - maybe because students from last year have put off applying to this year.

But there are loads of options! Your dd should check which courses are there, what she wants to do, where she wants to go...

@Lapsidasicle

Nanny and toodle are both spot on. There’s been a big shift in the past 5 years, high academic attainment is not enough these days.

With AI (which will impact on everyone’s jobs in the next few years), it’s what makes us human that will make us stand out and ensure career success. Being able to understand people, read and apply data to human behaviour will be key to so many jobs in many sectors.

Lots of technical jobs will become obsolete as they will be overtaken by machines learning.

If I may add a bit more nuance - many ‘primarily technical’ jobs will disappear. Gone are the days where you could be good at one thing, do it and thrive. These days everything changes so fast. And there are so many variables you need to have as pp mentioned strong stakeholder communication.

An example. In the bygone days companies had to host their own databases and you had sysadmins to look after this. Half of it was plugging things into the correct port. Now all but obsolete with cloud.
However - the fundamentals are the same. These people (in their 40’s, 60’s) are the experts now in the modern IT infrastructure of my company. Not the ‘young uns’

The people who understand the philosophical essence of what they are doing - who can form patterns and make connections - who can adapt to change will succeed .

I have found it shocking too. Gone are the days when your back up plan was a Poly that would take you with just one B, in case you fluffed it up completely.

Now your back up plan seems to be AAB !

I got an offer from Glasgow to do Mech Eng in 1990 - CC - yes two Cs! Very hard course 50% didn’t graduate in Engineering - a lot of us transferred into courses with higher entrance requirements but a much easier workload.