Farmed salmon, Waitrose, sophable and her dh

[Heathcliffscathy]

I don't know how many of you were following the live webchat yesterday. Mrsophable has been following with increasing distress the catastrophe that is unfolding (ever faster) in our oceans since I've known him (12 years now).

The issue of farmed salmon is one of a number of areas that he has been concerned about for years. I've been listening to this for a long time.

So when he couldn't make the webchat yesterday due to work, I rolled my sleeves up and tried my best to ask the questions and make the points that I felt he would have specifically with regard to farmed salmon (as that is the one that I have most concern about because of ds and therefore know the most about).

I felt a bit dissatisfied with the response from Quentin the Waitrose chief fish buyer, whilst acknowledging that credit is due to Waitrose for at least engaging with this crucial debate.

I'd really appreciate you all reading the post the MrSophable took the trouble to write late last night:

that was to Swedes btw

Mrsophable
how are your hamstrings?

Guadalupe: there are two MSC certified mackerel fisheries in the UK (one on scotland, one in the southwest)- its a great choice.

Tuna is far more troublesome because of bycatch involved in many methods, the fact that for most tinned tuna the actual species is not even identified which to me means it can't be a sustainably managed fishery. also besides skipjack, most tuna has high levels of mercury so it should be a little seldom, not a lot often.

Countess- my hamstrings are both sustainable, environmentally benign and low in mercury.

I am relieved to hear that alaskan wild salmon is ok

However if everyone starts buying that as an alternative to that pink fatty grot that is farmed salmon, will it not soon become endangered?

I am pleased to hear that
the Count is in the bath massaging his with his loofah (allegedly)

Quintessential- re dumping and bycatch....exactly!

and I think it is connected to salmon...the whole problem is intertwined...all that bycatch should either not be caught (i.e limit fishing by time spent at sea, not just to catch quotas) or what is caught should be used. and bear in mind that its more than just a waste..its also taking wild fish which could feed other wild fish (including salmon), seabirds etc etc.

Okay, thanks. More mackerel it is then.

I might try them with sardines though I think they'll find them too bony. I'm not sure they'll take to sardine sandwiches instead of tuna. They usually have it once a week or so.

"I am relieved to hear that alaskan wild salmon is ok

However if everyone starts buying that as an alternative to that pink fatty grot that is farmed salmon, will it not soon become endangered?"

Not if the fishery from whence it comes continues to be properly managed for sustainability. if demand exceeds supply then the price will go up and people will look elsewhere....actually the price of all salmon is far too low...all these predatory fish should be occasional treats not cheap weekly regulars- as high on the food chain predators they have concentrates of pollutants which mean we should avoid over indulging...and over indulgence has only become possible through an unsutainable farmed atlantic ssalmon glut.

guadelupe: i coaxed 5yo son into some sardine this weekend (not just the eyes!)- they are actually fairly easy to fillet and then pick out the bones left. bigger ones are easier to handle but the bones are a bit chunkier..

Unless they make other changes to wildlife policy and decide the otter is an endagered species.... You cant have otter in salmon bearing rivers, they eat the spawn.

This is another tragedy for norwegian salmon - the otter came onto the endangered species list.

So sainbos should not be selling it for £2.99 for two sizeable bits or £5 for two packs?

I think they should be your next target as they have been doing this for some time...

I think I might stick to tinned sardines for now. Toddlers and fish bones would be too much for my nerves!

I am definitely going to try other fish now though. Thanks for all the info.

quintessential- not sure i understand you but i think you can have otters on salmon rivers...every salmon river i can think of in the uk sustains a population of otters...i guess it might be a question of numbers of otters !

guadelupe and others: mussels are a decent source of omega 3 (more per gramme than skipjack tuna and cod for instance) and can be farmed in a most benign fashion...

You may have answered this but I can't find it... would I be better buying the Waitrose organic farmed salmon (I never buy the non-organic stuff as it looks a bit flabby)?

We are lucky enough to get occasional wild salmon from Scotland--presumably this is is OK?

Thanks for this, and especially for pointing out that the Spanish have hoovered up so much of the fishstocks. My father in law in Scotland is still very upset about what happened to fish stocks up there.

I guess it depends on how the species is "sustained". Too many, they eat the spawn and the population of salmon born to the river goes down dramatically. Local people used to sneak out in the night otter hunting to keep the salmon spawn from being eaten. But you can't poach an animal on the endangered species list without serious repercussions... So when the otter population flourishes, it affects the salmon population. There seem to never be a balance.

abraid - I like your term hoover. The spanish fishing fleet has hoovered up a large chunk of the fish stock along the coast of norway, too. Then they move into british territory and dump all the fish that does not meet their requirements (tons and tons) into the sea there.

It still causes great ire in Scotland. Actually it makes me cross, too. What on earth is the point of the EU if problems like this can't be sorted out?

Abraid- personally i think organic farmed salmon is still unacceptable. The soil association, in my opinion, has seriously damaged its own brand by certifying farmed fish . Yes, its better than non-organic but thats not saying much, and i understand the SA allow the use of SLICE and other 'vetinerary treatements' on 'organic' certified farms (the alternative is to allow plagues of parasites to devour the fish.

Even organic farms have the environmental impact on local fish and shellfish populations (its simply unnatural to have a concentration of migratory fish in a cage ...all their excrement, the uneaten pellets , the anti lice treatments...they have to go somewhere).

And then there's the problem of what you feed the farmed salmon...i remain to be convinced there is such a thing as a sustainably sourced salmon feed pellet. I'm hoping Quentin and Waitrose are going to prove me wrong.

and if you're concentrating small fish into pellets for big fish you're concentrating pollutants and toxins in the flesh of the farmed fish too.

On the freshwater Loch where Marine Harvest had caged young farmed salmon, the excrement build up under the cages was totally disgusting. I've been out on the cages to feed the fish and the pellets smell of bacon. It's all so obviously wrong.

MrSophable - Farmed mussels always seem OK and environmentally of no adverse impact as they are just buoys, ropes and weights sitting in the sea. Is that true or am I being naive?

Could we have a run down of what sustainable, healthy fish we should be looking for? I'm such a fish dunce.

Lupusina, this is the Greenpeace list of fish to avoid - the website is rather interesting.

...and interestingly, it includes wild Atlantic salmon

...and this gives very detailed information on each supermarket's policies and practices. It does seem to be slightly out of date (written in 2006 I think), but worth reading (I haven't yet).