Farmed salmon, Waitrose, sophable and her dh

[Heathcliffscathy]

I don't know how many of you were following the live webchat yesterday. Mrsophable has been following with increasing distress the catastrophe that is unfolding (ever faster) in our oceans since I've known him (12 years now).

The issue of farmed salmon is one of a number of areas that he has been concerned about for years. I've been listening to this for a long time.

So when he couldn't make the webchat yesterday due to work, I rolled my sleeves up and tried my best to ask the questions and make the points that I felt he would have specifically with regard to farmed salmon (as that is the one that I have most concern about because of ds and therefore know the most about).

I felt a bit dissatisfied with the response from Quentin the Waitrose chief fish buyer, whilst acknowledging that credit is due to Waitrose for at least engaging with this crucial debate.

I'd really appreciate you all reading the post the MrSophable took the trouble to write late last night:

[MrSophable]

Superbunny- i am not an environmental scientist. Just an interested and avid reader around the subject. I love fishing so yes, i have an interest to declare in that sense (hunters often make good conservationists!) and thats what started my interest.

three books i would reccommend are:

Safina's 'song for the blue ocean'

Clover's 'end of the line'

and Grescoe's 'Bottomfeeder'

i can't claim any credit for any of the facts and figures and ideas i'm rabbitting on about here- most come from one of the above, or from online resources like Fishbase, the MSC, greenpeace , or blueocean.

[MrSophable]

erm, i'm off then.

[treedelivery]

Well, who knew?

Amazing thread - thank you!

Have never eaten bought fish as it all seemed so cruel and so wrong, but kids do. So have learnt so much.

[QuintessentialShadow]

My parents love to suck the eyeballs of deepwater fish. They bulge magnificently.

sorry for that piece of useless trivia.

[QuintessentialShadow]

It is the eyes that bulge. Not my parents. Just to clarify.

[treedelivery]

[expatinscotland]

GREAT bit of useless trivia, Quint! I loves it!

[expatinscotland]

And I'd long forgotten the term 'bottomfeeder', well used as an alternative swear word in my native country, along with pond scum and reject.

[QuintessentialShadow]

[expatinscotland]

Oh, I have sophable to thank for the eternal image of a sea louse she once linked to one of these threads to put me off farmed salmon.

[SuperBunny]

MrSophable. I agree - proper hunters are often some of the best stewards of the environment because they respect the natural cycle of things.

I'd just like to add that, whilst Alaskan Salmon may be better for the fisheries, one then might want to consider food miles. And, if eating Salmon flown 6000 miles is really a good thing? I'd rather just go without. I remember when salmon was a once a year treat.

Sea lice pictures here. Don't click if squeamish.

[abraid]

Do you mind not dragging down the tone of this thread, Quintessentialshadow?

This isn't a thread referring to Asda or Tesco fish products.

[QuintessentialShadow]

Self caught deep water fish, or the fishmongers, abraid. tsk asda fish eyes.... What is the world coming to. Are they pickled?

[abraid]

Getting pickled sounds like quite a good idea. Probably a bit early, though.

[QuintessentialShadow]

Getting pickled is a red herring this time of day

[midnightexpress]

For Quint. Stick with it.

[QuintessentialShadow]

Very disturbing.

[MiniMarmite]

Mr/Sophable - I've been thinking about our discussion much earlier in these threads about HFW recommending eating organic farmed salmon rather than wild alaskan.

He obviously has (justifiably) a huge influence on what people eat and the way people think about sustainable living in general.

Would you consider taking some action on this front? Your points re farmed salmon are obviously valid and well researched. Maybe a letter or another form of contact would help to ensure the next edition of 'Fish' accurately reflects the current situation.

Just a thought [smile}

[MrSophable]

minimarmite- i've been thinking about that..particularly as i'm sitting watching his royal hughness doing things to strawberries as i type.

i would like to talk to him-and indeed i'm planning on opening a dialogue with all the supermarkets too (the ones that will talk). marks and spencers make some big claims as do sainsburys. tescos i sense simply don't care...but who knows where it all might lead

there's no doubt that organic farmed salmon is better....but better than plain old farmed isn't a very high bar to surpass and for me its not good enough.

maybe Hugh worries about the big carbon footprint of alaskan salmon but then it seems (and i only have anecidtal evidence for this) that a lot of farmed salmon does a fair amount of travelling from the scottish lochs to somewhere for processing -where there's cheap labour- before finding its way to the high street.

personally i think salmon should be a luxury, item-or at very least an occasional treat-like it was for centuries pre salmon farming. that makes the pollutant issues farless of a worry...and you can get plenty of omega 3 from tasty mackerel, sardines and mussels to name but 3...

[MiniMarmite]

Sounds like an ambitious and worthwhile plan.

I was in M&S today and I have to say that I don't think I could have justified buying any of the fish available...but it was at the end of the day so lets hope everyone had already bought the good stuff!

I think you're right about salmon no longer being a luxury item. I guess that's inevitable when we generally narrow our range of fish eaten to only about 3 different types!

I'm a willing volunteer to join your campaign if that would help in any way...promise to do my homework! I'm sure a few other MNers would willingly join too.

[MrSophable]

Minimarmite- i feel hardly worthy of the warm reception I have received here , but really excited by the interest in the issue that you and lots of other mumsnetters have shown. It is something I care about, and believe we should all be at the very least better informed about the fish we are sold as an 'essential , healthy component' of our diets.

Not sure its a campaign yet but I am working on it. Awaiting a response from M +S and following some other leads...watch this space!

[Blu]

I am confused now: I thought the Young's frozen wild salmon was Atlantic salmon, but I guess it must be alaskan. I see that the fat / calorie levels for a fillet of frozen wild salmon are far lower than for that of the young's salmon which is not labelled 'wild'.
Will up intake of sardines and mackerel and reduce salmon and tuna, I think. Although the balance is already tipped that way.

[applepudding]

Mr Sophable - I have looked again at the Salmon in Sainsbury's and yes I was getting confused. It says 'sustainably sourced' and has the freedom food sticker on it.

I have bought some tinned Albacore tuna which has got an MSC sticker on it.

[MrSophable]

I met with Quentin and some of his colleagues at Waitrose HQ today.

I asked lots of questions and they gave me some answers, and a lot more documentation to read and digest and think about.

In summary (not very brief), my thoughts so far are:

On the plus side:

-waitrose want to be transparent about their farmed salmon and are prepared to open doors to let us or a documentary team- or both- have a look at how their salmon is farmed.

-they were at pains to point out that they are the first supermarket to properly address all of the issues that fish and indeed all seafood raise ( sustainability, other environmental impacts, quality, welfare, social issues).

-to their credit they admit that they have not yet got perfect solutions to all of these issues, and their farmed salmon certainly does not yet tick all the boxes. however, i think they can justifiably claim to be doing better than most.

But...

• I have to say that most of my personal reservations about farmed salmon persist- to put it baldly I would not eat, or serve to my son, farmed salmon - waitrose or otherwise. Is 'better than most' good enough when it comes to farming salmon? Not for me. However, I was most encouraged by initiatives they described, which suggest a genuine effort to combat the big issues discussed further down this thread on a number of fronts.

-I continue to be disturbed by research highlighting the problem of pollutants concentrated in salmon- PCBs, dioxins and other dioxin like substances. Some of it discussed here
So far I don't think this has been satisfactorily answered. Carnivores concentrate pollutants- if we were to live ona diet of peregrine falcons i imagine that would be unhealthy for us as well as falcon populations. We know we should limit how much tuna or swordfish we eat for our own health-putting aside their sustainability or otherwise. The same is true for salmon...but it's promoted as a healthy option, something to have every week. That to me sits uneasily with research saying we should only eat it a few times a year. Maybe the research is plain wrong- but so far the fish farming industry has failed to show that. Its something to think about when eating wild or farmed fish- sardines or mussels deliver your omega 3 with significantly less pcb or dioxin or mercury.

-at the heart of the other big problem- sustainability- is how you feed a carnivorous fish like a salmon in captivity: for the product to deliver the health benefit of omega 3 the salmon must be fed food with a high proportion of fish meal and fish oil- so wild fish are being rendered to raise farmed. waitrose are striving to make this a sustainable equation- but they haven't got there yet.

Conclusions?

Farmed seafood is undeniably going to be a part of our future - pretending its not is unrealistic, and condeming it out of hand won't make it go away. So whilst I don't think any farmed salmon is up there with, say, MSC certified mackerel or sardines, or farmed mussels, it would be great to think that developing consumer consciousness of what's at stake could help drive a change in that too , just as its driving a change in the wild sea fish -and indeed chicken and pork and other produce- we buy.

At the risk of repeating myself I think Waitrose should be commended for opening and engaging with the debate. Its not just a cynical view to say they stand to gain an edge over their competitors by doing so- of course they do..... but if waitrose build their market share by changing the market-and thence the environment - for the better, then thats a good thing in my book.

[MiniMarmite]

Any update on the trip Mr/Sophable?

I found Norfolk shrimp and crayfish in my local Waitrose today, labelled as a new product. Don't know if it was in response to the webchat but was very please ...thanks Quentin!