Question about animal welfare for vegetarian/vegan peeps

[Lauriefairycake]

My husband is attempting to move towards eating cheese that's not made from milk from cattle that have their calves killed.

So we're wondering about goats cheese - are the baby goats killed in order than the female goats keeps producing milk for cheese or is it possible to find small producers that do rear the goats too.

We have managed to move to rice milk/non butter stuff but needing to tackle cheese as he eats so much of it

Any ideas ??

Mouse cheese.

Made from mouse milk. See here, the cheese is a bit small though.

yuk...

LOL

They make chocolate from it too.

Just don't eat it, or eat soya cheese instead.

Sorry, but in my mind, all dairy production is wrong.

Thanks shrooms. I think all mass produced dairy production is definitely morally questionable.

But what I'm trying to find out is there some small producer of dairy cheese that doesn't kill the young animals but instead rears them.

I'm well aware that the vast majority of milk products come from dairy cattle that give birth, have the young killed and then the female animals are kept in permanent lactation so we can use the milk for cheese.

Appreciate what you say about soya cheese but its so overprocessed and salty it's not really healthy every day (he eats cheese in most meals). I'm also worried about the link between soya products and cancer too.

I thought there were loads of veggies/vegans on here - was really hoping someone would come on and say "the farm down the road from me doesn't kill the calves and the cheese is yum".

I never knew that about killing calves .
I just assumed that once the calf no longer needed the milk that was when the milking machines took over.

That's what most people think because the animal products producers are so bloody sneaky and don't let on what they really get up behing closed doors. (eg - the 'shock' about chicken farms only really came about the other year).

In reality, the cows are injected with hormones to make them lactate for years when their babies are shipped away practically from birth and fed on cheap, fattening grains befire being slaughtered for veal.

Soya products like tofu, tempeh and miso aren't carcinogenic, but soya junk products may be due to the overprocessing. I see what you mean about soya cheese. It's not great and we don't have it often, and I suppose I wouldn't reccomend it if you were havong it every meal as it isn't nutritious!

I guess, then, your dilema stands, as it really up to you and your husband what matters more: relying on cows milk cheese for every meal (which is actually not at all healthy) or standing against unnecessary cruelty to animals.

I often tell people, when asked how we are healthy without dairy, that cows milk is for baby cows, not humans. We are the only species that are weaned off mothers milk and hen drink the milk of another species. Kind of gross really!

Good luck!

I feel quite sick

Try the vegetarian society - google 'em, they may have info. Guess the vegan society wouldn't on the grounds it's for people who don't eat dairy.

The male calves are killed (very few are used for veal) because they have no market value - the farmer can't feed them if he isn't going to earn his money back. Sadly.

Calves that are bred for dairy - are they fed naturally?

Some are allowed ti graze naturally, but your bog standard cheap dairy will be from cows that were fed enormous amounts of cheap grain to make them fat.

Whoa there girls, some of the info being posted here is waaaaaay wrong!

Dairy cows in the UK are NOT injected with hormones to make them lactate for years (this is illegal, and in any case all milk is sampled for drug residues regularly) - they lactate for approx 9 months a year with 3 months dry, and they have a calf every year. While many farms do unfortunately have to kill their male dairy calves, this is only a small proportion of all the calves born on the farm (many will be fathered by beef bulls and so will be used for meat production, and female calves fathered by a dairy bull will then be used to replace their mothers in time). Some farms may not kill any calves - there's one around 4 miles from me which produces milk commercially and does not cull a single calf (obviously unless it is injured or something).

Most dairy farms could not survive without relying on grazing to feed their cattle - the grass provides summer feeding in terms of grazing and winter feeding from silage production. All dairy cows have their diet supplemented with concentrate rations in the form of barley or proprietary feedstuffs.

You're all welcome to hold whatever opinions you like, and I'm not here to argue with you about morals or ethics, but posting hyperbolic, foundless nonsense about an extremely closely regulated industry doesn't help anyone.

Sorry, can't help with the OP, but like the mouse idea ...

There is cruelty in the dairy industry just as there is in all types of farming, but you are being a little disengeneous shrooms. The average cow in the UK is not injected with hormones to keep lactating for years; if she was there would be very little problem with unwanted calves. A cow has a calf and will lactate for nine months or so before being dried off for a couple of months prior to calving again.

There is little market for bull dairy calves as we generally do not eat veal in the UK hence either they are sold to be raised abroad or shot on the farm, sad but they do not make good beef and even when castrated can have an uncertain temperament making them difficult to handle. Heifer calves will be either raised as replacements or sold to other dairy farmers. They will be fed milk and then go out in the fields till old enough to calve.

I think you will find that organic dairy produce will have the highest welfare standards, but remember that the dairy cow is a specialist beast which is designed to give lots of milk and not get fat (all food consumed goes to make milk)hence the poor prognosis for the bull calves. Most cows will be grazing on grass in the summer but have to come inside in the winter to keep warm.

Must learn to type faster!

Okay, so a few things have been changed in recent years, I hadn't realised, but I know that the feeding and the conditions that most dairy cows are kept in aren't checked regularly, and there is alot of cruelty. Bottom lin eis, it's wrong, and we don't need the stuff.
Sorry for ranting, I just feel stringly about this type of thing.

shrooms, dairy cattle probably enjoy better living conditions than many otrher farm animals do. There is a direct correlation between poor welfare standards and lower milk production so it's not in a farmer's best economic interests to have animals which are in pain or discomfort. It has a direct impact on productivity and farmers know this.

Most UK dairy farmers milk their cattle twice daily, sometimes three times. Some people don't check on their dogs that often ...

As for feeding, apart from the fact that cattle are fed in the milking parlour (hence are always happy to take themselves in for milking!), if farmers didn't feed them adequately they wouldn't produce enough good quality milk. It's not simply about volume.

I'm sorry but you patently know very little about the realities of dairy farming in this country, which can be said for most of the UK general public, sadly. I'm confident when I drink milk produced here that the animals involved were treated well and that there are no residues in it. Now, if you want to discuss the price supermarkets pay their suppliers, that's a real horror story ...!

Well if you have that opinion, fine. I am obviously talking out of place. But I won't be made to feel embarrassed about my decision to not support the dairy industry, or about my reasoning.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with your decision not to support the dairy industry, and nor should you feel embarrassed. however those of us who know a little more about the reality of UK dairy farming should be allowed to correct your quite daft assertions.

I have found this discussion very interesting - thanks

Err, not daft, thanks. It's all very well to say that the hormones are illegal ect ect, but even british dairy cows are inseminated in their dry months to becomedairy is great pregnant again.

And there isn't any ban on removong extra nipples with surgical scissors, with no pain relief.

The only reason why there are laws against hormone use and male calf slaughter is human welfare, not that of the cows. It is so that we don't complain about BSE (after the massive outbreak) and traces of hormones in the milk sold. It is not a measure to improve the lives of the cows, and the fact that people will say that dairy is great just because a positive spin is put on it by the goverment (who earn shedloads from the dairy industry), is very dishonest.

So no, I shouldn't feel embarrased.

The dairy is great between become and pregnant was a cursor typo, not me trying to add a sarcastic slant to tghe sentence!

Thanks very much so far all of you for the info. We are currently eating organic cheese and have been for a while but are hoping to move even further forward.

I am still however no further forward with finding an actual cheese from one of these small producers who don't kill the male bull calves.

Anyone know anything about goats ?? surely they are less likely to kill the baby goats as they would be smaller producers? There's actually a goat cheese farm up the road from me but I would feel a right numpty emailing them and asking them this.

Also is it one step forward to at least buy french cheese on the assumption that they at least rear the calves for veal - better they live for 6-8 months rather than being culled at birth ?

I appreciate we're talking about degrees of cruelty here and that everyone has different opinions.

thank god that chubbyscotsburd and molecule tried to set the record straight!
sorry to offend but have never read such a load of rubbish in all my life!
not completely sure, but think that many male goats would also be reared for eating....mostly for other cultures. not all farmers kill all bull calves - i know for us this would be a complete last resort! we sell ours on for other people to rear. Also do not sell them for export as many farmers around here did before foot and mouth / bluetongue.
I find it really offensive that you think that farmers care so little for their animals! To most it is their life's work and they are extremely proud of them and would in no way want to harm them.
Also, to clarify a point, most cows produce far more milk than their own calf is capable of drinking.

oh and our milk is sold to a local co - operative that tries to give the farmer a fairer price for their milk. The milk is only sold locally so thus it cuts down on pollution etc and quality is exceptionally high.