Question about animal welfare for vegetarian/vegan peeps

[Lauriefairycake]

My husband is attempting to move towards eating cheese that's not made from milk from cattle that have their calves killed.

So we're wondering about goats cheese - are the baby goats killed in order than the female goats keeps producing milk for cheese or is it possible to find small producers that do rear the goats too.

We have managed to move to rice milk/non butter stuff but needing to tackle cheese as he eats so much of it

Any ideas ??

At the risk of being reeeeeallly pedantic, the cattle are inseminated well before the dry period - most farms aim for a 365 calving interval so ideally a cow would get in calf within 3 months of giving birth. Having said that, these days there isn't always such drive to get an animal back in calf again quickly provided milk yield is upkept.

The issues with BSE arose from inappropriate use of animal by-products to feed ruminants. BSE, like CJD and Scrapie, arises from proteins called prions, not from any use of drugs in animals.

There are no laws against slaughtering male calves.

You are, however, correct in noting that laws are passed to protect human welfare - that is what the UK public wanted, so that is what they got.

I'm interested to know what you base the assertion that the government "earn shedloads from the dairy industry" on though. Last I saw the government was at best apathetic in its attitude towards farming.

Nobody is denying your right to choice in what you consume shrooms. But your opinions appear to have been formed on the basis of some quite crazy ideas, so it seems only fair to explain to you how things actually work. Otherwise some less aware souls might browse this thread and come away with images of UK dairy cows as shotgun-pellet-ravaged hormone-imbalanced mutants. They're just cows, honest.

yep, scotsburd, totally agree....The dry period is usually just pre - calving.

Do you live on a farm?

No, caz, but my job involves aiding and abetting you wicked farmers!

it's just awful that people see us like that! ( Iknow you are only joking!) If necessary we get up in the night, the cows always come before us! well you know what it's like!
It's not a job it's a way of life, and a labour of love. We are on a rented farm and are not rich and times have been hard, but Wouldn't change a thing.

Look, I never wanted to fall out with other mumsnetters over this, and I assure you that I am not crazy, I just happen to disagree with the methods of SOME farmers. I know that there are a few farmers who treat their cows quite. well, but this doesn't form the majority. My ideas aren't crazy, they are proven by surprise checks by animal welfare officers. That is that. I've said what I think and people can read what they want to read and believe what they want to believe. Peace.

I never said you were crazy.
I also disagree with the practises of some farmers.
Would disagree with the majority thing....I think the farmers that mistreat their animals would be in the minority.
We have regular checks, not just on animal welfare but also on hygiene, cleanliness etc

Thing is I am talking from personal experience - this is a part of my life. You are not. You don't even seem to understand the practicalities of what goes on with milking animals. Maybe you should do a bit more research.

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thanks for lightening the mood cod! better go and give my poor little calves their last supper! back later

Caz - so you are obviously a very caring farmer and love your cows. That's great, but it doesn't mean that you know everything about other dairy farmers just because it's a part of your life. There will be regional differences in farming also, and supermarket cheap milk is still a product of unsuitable conditions. I have today gone on to read more about speciality farms, which look good, but there is still nothing to prove the welfare of large scale dairy farms for supermarkets such as tescos.
So I'll once again reiterate that I am not slating small scale farmers, even though I don't agree with milking cows for human consumption.

And, no, I don't 'fully' understand the practicalities of milking cows becasue I don't so it, but I know that the standard dairy cow is a result of generations of selective breeding to get the higher yields of milk. And with the amount they produce and therefore the amount they get milked, they sustain injuries and become lame alot more easily. And lame cows usually get killed, because they serve no purpose on a crowded farm.

milk is cheap in tescos as farmers get paid very little for it.
Things are starting to look up on that front but some people get paid 14 pence per litre. Tescos sell it for at least 4 times that. Some (but very few) farmers are on specialist contracts but the majority of milk is sold to supermarkets or made into cheap cheese.
Would agree that selective breeding has made high yielding animals, which do suffer from more problems, but this is a case of needs must. If we got paid more for each litre produced, we could produce less and have the same income.
Lameness is a welfare problem on some farms but there are a number of other factors.
Not trying to be a "know all" just trying to provide a clearer picture of the way things really are.

Tescos are a scummy company. Don't care one bit about the welfare of the animals OR their suppliers.

ANY supermarket is. Probably one thing we can agree on! lol

Indeed...

Firstly, sorry to reignite what had been laid to rest but I really hate seeing inaccuracies going unchallenged.

Large scale farms probably have the best welfare standards around - these are flourishing businesses which have adapted to tough market conditions, usually with forward-thinking, smart people at the helm. That means they will operate herd health schemes, will be members of quality assurance schemes and will be acutely aware of the need for regular footcare, a high quality of nutrition, suitable cubicle housing, well-maintained milking equipment and safe facilities for unwell animals. These very large farms tend to have weekly routine vet visits to discuss issues like fertility, lameness, incidence of metabolic disease etc, they will work closely with nutritionists and feed manufacturers to make a tailor-made ration, and they will employ skilled staff who are capable of undertaking the necessary routine footcare. As I have said before, in the case of dairy farming poor welfare has a direct impact on milk production and to suggest that large scale farms subject their animals to greater suffering than smaller enterprises simply illustrates the degree of your misinformation.

Really, the dairy industry has superb welfare standards, and is extremely aware of the problems it faces in terms of nutrition and lameness. But as a sector with many large and successful businesses it is constantly striving to make improvements in these areas because that's what earns them profit. The issues that are concerning you affect a small minority of farms and these are not likely to be prospering businesses given the strain that they have to operate under, and so are unlikely to even be operational in a decade.

Can i sound thick and ask what you mean by lameness?

Lameness means that the cow becomes unable to walk due to having to stand in one place for ages.

Whether my opinion is right or not, and whether the problem is as small as you say or not, I still don't agree with milking cows for human food. I'll never go back on milk. You've made you point, and hopefully our strong opposite opinions have given other mners something to think about. I know where I stand with it, and so do you. But again, I don't want to be made to sound like someone who thinks of crazy theories and tries to convert people to my beliefs. That was never the intention.

thanks for an excellent post chubbyscotsburd.
shrooms, lameness is caused by a huge variety of things.....what makes you think cows have to stand still for long periods of time?

As another regular visiter to farms (a veggie one too) - I would say that the average dairy cow has a better life style than the average dairy farmer - a lot less stressed!

Rephrase: Lameness can be cause by having to stand for long periods and is a common cause in intensively milked dairy cows.

I've never yet seen signs on a dairy farm saying "No Lying Down Allowed"! Lameness is multifactorial and is generally caused by a combination of genetics and conformation, environmental conditions and inadequate footcare.

Shrooms, have you ever tried to stop a cow from lying down if she wants to?

That's what I mean - your correction supports my argument.
And yes, a cow would be incredibly hard to stop doing anything it wanted to for that matter! But on the select milking parlours where they are standing in very small and narrow cubicles, they have no room to lie down so are literally forced to stand up.

You do realise, shrooms, that they only go to the parlour to be milked? The rest of the time they are at grass or housed in cubicle sheds. A milking is typically quick - a cow is only in the parlour for around 10-15 minutes or so. OK, so with twice daily milking that's maybe half an hour a day where thy could be lying down, but can't. If they were feeding calves they'd be spending a lot longer than that in forced standing!

Lameness isn't related to spending too much time on their feet, end of story. Where on earth do you get this stuff from, or do you just make it up?

They, not thy ... [rolls eyes]