Question about animal welfare for vegetarian/vegan peeps

[Lauriefairycake]

My husband is attempting to move towards eating cheese that's not made from milk from cattle that have their calves killed.

So we're wondering about goats cheese - are the baby goats killed in order than the female goats keeps producing milk for cheese or is it possible to find small producers that do rear the goats too.

We have managed to move to rice milk/non butter stuff but needing to tackle cheese as he eats so much of it

Any ideas ??

Where do you get your attitude from? Or is it just natural.

Very interesting debate... but before it dissolves into bitchery , I just have a quick question. How does the mother cow react when her baby is taken away from her every year?

Presumably she has nurturing instincts like all us mother animals? So does she grieve?

Yes, she does, and it is against her natural instinct to let her baby go, so she will be very angry and separating them will be difficult. Cruel, IMO, but watch this space, as I will probably soon be corrected and made to feel like an idiot...

And off topic, gogo - I saw your piccies and your DD is blardy lovely!

lol about stopping a cow doing what it wants chubbyscotsburd. agree with all you have to say.
I don't want to make this personal shrooms, but just can't make out what you think a farm actually looks like????
Perhaps you should go and have a look at one instead of assuming you know.
Some cows have a strong mothering urge, and equally some don't, same as humans really! Some won't even look at their babies and lick them dry. we typically leave the calf with the cow for 12 - 24 hours depending on the time of day it is born. by then the cow will need milking as the baby will only drink 5 - 8 litres and she will probably produce 40 - 60 litres a day depending on what breed she is, what she is fed etc. she then rejoins the main herd of cows and baby goes to the calf house.

I don't think you are being personal at all, and I agree with alot of what you are telling me, about various minimal standards ect, but I do think that you have a rose-tinted view of modern farms due to the quality of your own and your own personal experiences. I have been to farms for school trips, of which some were lovely, probably as good as yours, and some not so, and you could see that the cows were suffering. Yes this was a few years back, but I doubt that that situation has been eradicated within that time.
Yes, SOME mothers have less compassion to their young, more often the older ones who have had them taken away a few times. And yes they produce alot of milk, but only through selective breeding. If humans had left alone, then they wouldn't need to be milked so much.

aw, thanks shrooms!

So Cazboldy, is there any sign of emotional distress at that point?

I ask because the house I grew up in was next to a field where the farmer kept cattle. There was an old railway carriage in the field and he used to put calves in there prior to being sold or otherwise disposed of. The mother cows stood right outside the carriage and basically cried non-stop, and the calves could be heard crying too. It was horrible.

I'm sure this is far from standard practice but it did show me the potential for emotional suffering.

I guess I'm asking whether you've see any of that potential in your own experience?

actualy shrooms would say that the older cows are usually more maternal.
gogo, the occasional one may be reluctant to leave her baby, and vice - versa. the longer you leave them together the stronger the bond (usually) so another reason why they are split so soon, but on the whole it is not a problem at all.
I do admire you for being a vegan and standing by your beliefs so resolutely shrooms, but really, there are worse things you know!

also, gogo were they definitely dairy cattle? beef cattle usually keep their babies with them.....still not sure why the farmer would do this???

Course there are worse things. There are always worse things. It just doesn't mean that I would change my mind!
Thanks, though. Lets agree to disagree, I guess!

and would say that really our farm is probably an average run of the mill farm.
We are concious of welfare because we care about our animals as do most farmers.
I don't think I am seeing it as all rosy.

I am not a farmer, but worked on farms all through my teenage and twenties to pay for my course.

The first thing I was told when starting to feed, and later milk, was to be calm and kind and soothing with the cows as they give most milk when relaxed and happy.

I worked on about 5 farms, and never saw anyone be cruel or uncaring with a cow. Farmers milk them several times a day for years - each one has a personality which those who care for them quickly get to know.

You may believe that in principle it is not right to separate young animals from their mothers, and that is your perogative, but that is a defensible position per se - it is not necessary to make claims about other aspects of animal welfare.