Obstetric violence - legs forced open against my will

[NibliaBiblia]

When I was in labour with my daughter, the midwives spent twenty minutes trying to force my legs open to get me flat on my back with my legs up. There was no emergency. It was so they could get a better CTG reading. I physically resisted for as long as I could and verbally told them to stop. They didn't stop until I gave up. After that they did other things without my consent, but I did not they to stop them again.
I complained to the hospital and they have done nothing. I complained to the police and they told me there must have been an emergency. I've complained to the NMC and the CQC. I hope they will do something but it's a long process so I won't know for a long time.
The police used to say that domestic violence was a private matter. They used to say that if you got in the car/went into the apartment/were drinking then you must have agreed to it. I think this is exactly the same type of justification, applied to equally criminal behaviour.
I don't think my experience is abnormal. I think this is fairly routine. They thought that when I gave up that meant I consented.

The thing that you're missing is that a lot of these interventions are not life saving. There is very little evidence to say that unless they did X, baby would have died, or even that they wouldn't have died if they had it in those tragic cases.

When I went for my obstetric review, I mentioned I might not have VEs. The doctor asked how they are supposed to know i am in labour. I said because I will keep having contractions until a baby comes out of me. He seemed baffled by the idea that they could do absolutely nothing, and I'd still give birth.

Another fucking shit comment, by another idiot who has no idea that women are routinely brutalised in labour wards. That babies die, that women are maimed, that women are left with lifelong physical and mental trauma, and that it is FRIGHTENINGLY COMMON. And that it happens with partners sitting right next to the woman.

Read before you speak. Read about James Titcombe, and how his baby James died.

https://www.patientstories.org.uk/joshuas-story/

Look at the grief on the parents' face

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1kyw24elv7o

Read before you speak.

That’s what I’m saying. I know (and agree) that legally women can make choices which puts their unborn child in danger.

Why don’t you?

its very very common that birth partners get flustered and don’t advocate for the mother? Very common.

the woman isn’t on trial. You weren’t there, you don’t know if it was 17 mins or 15 mins or 10. We need to stop cross examining women when they come forward about things that were done to them without their consent.

And they wonder why there are not enough midwives.

Being asked to do something at such a time I would have expected most mothers to be compliant. And do as asked and requested. Not to resist.

As someone upthread has said, they are focusing on the baby. And trying albeit with difficulty, to do the best for all concerned.

It’s a type of white coat syndrome I think. Partners talk about assuming the staff knew best and not feeling like they could interfere.

I suspect they have far more experience of delivery of a baby. And do know what to do.

No, you cannot blame patients for decades of understaffing, budget cuts and toxic management.

no.

funny thing, women are human beings. Maybe treat them as such. Radical thought I know.

there are some incredible midwives, who you can see it’s a vocation and despite all the shit, difficult patients, crappy conditions it’s where they were born to be. But the problem with toxic management and being overworked is you will lose the ‘good’ and keep the bad, you see it in every work place.

I haven’t read the whole thread @NibliaBiblia so apologies if you’ve already tried them, but Birthrights have a specific campaign about obstetric coercion and might be able to help — birthrights.org.uk/advice-factsheets/request-advice/

The thing is, many of the women who are disbelieving of his inaction would have probably acted to facilitate the abuse of a labouring woman they were meant to be supporting.

Women have birth stories were their husbsnds or mothers helped hold them down or otherwise bully them into a decision because they saw the HCPs as people who must be obeyed.

I find it fascinating in a terrible way that labouring women are seen as incapable of taking decisions, and that many people feel so inferior to the expertise of midwives and obstreticians that they literally advise doing whatever they recommend.
One PP wrote that she wouldn't go to the dentist and clamp her mouth shut. But surely she wouldn't consent to everything the dentist suggested? Actually, my dentist asks for my consent for everything he suggests. The conversation is literally: "I'd suggest an anaesthetic for this procedure, are you fine with that?" and I will say "yes, I am". If I say no, he'll say "There will be some pain, please hold still." There are no grey areas, no questioning of my ability to comprehend what he's saying, no discussions, no ignoring my decisions.

When I was in labour with my second, I said, loudly and clearly, "No, I don't want my waters broken." A few minutes later, the midwife said she'd like to do a VE, to which I consented. She then broke my waters while examining me. What made her believe she could act like that? If she'd been a dentist, I highly doubt she would have performed a procedure I had explicitly refused. The answer for me is that the patients are women, and there is already less respect for women in general, and on top of that, there is a systemic disrespect, contempt even, for women that is specific to midwifery. In most hospitals, the labouring women are looked down on not only because of misogyny, but also because the midwives who work there are systematically taught to put the women in their place. How dare they refuse a recommended procedure! That's not their place, and anyway, they're in labour so incapable of thinking clearly. That's the line of thought and it would never be used if men were the ones giving birth, and it is also much less frequent in other areas of healthcare.

Obstetric violence makes me really angry and women need to speak up about it as much as possible.

There was a parliamentary inquiry on birth trauma. Poor treatment in labour is not uncommon. I see no reason why OP is inventing or exaggerating anything. This is not a court of law it’s a chatroom that I thought centred women.
https://www.theo-clarke.org.uk/sites/www.theo-clarke.org.uk/files/2024-05/Birth%20Trauma%20Inquiry%20Report%20for%20Publication_May13_2024.pdf

while technically correct I disagree with the overall sentiment. And I say that as a midwife. Midwives may know what’should be done to achieve a particular outcome but that doesn’t mean it’s best for that particular woman.

I used to know an anaesthetist who believed women in labour weren’t in their right minds and couldn’t make a decision. To the extent if their birth plan said no epidural and then they asked for one he’d refuse to site one.

is that what people want? Because all of those on this thread who say do as you’re told can’t have it both ways? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Right - you must have a sweep, you must have a VE, you must have amnio, you must not have a csection, you must be induced when we say so, you must not have the pain relief you are asking for. I am not ok with any woman feeling compelled in pregnancy or labour for any of these sort of treatments.

Why would consent be treated as optional?? It turns my stomach.

Of course clinicians know more than most patients and I would always want to hear their views and understand the risks, but consent is a very very important medical principle that should only be overridden in exceptional circumstances.

I think it’s more disturbing that so many people think that when a woman becomes pregnant she loses her right to refuse consent. I say this as someone who is currently 39w pregnant.

Instead of wrestling with her for 20 minutes they could have deescalated the situation and calmly explained to her why they wanted her on her back and tried to find another solution if she refused, like her lying on her side and her husband holding the CTG in place or raising the bed up so she’s not flat on her back, more pain relief etc. I have no idea why they were forcing her legs open, I assume to try and get her in stirrups or perform a VE, but again there should have been a conversation about this, and if she still refused a compromise or work around found if possible.

If there was no work around then you outline the risks to her of not consenting and document it in the notes, you don’t do it to her by force, to me it’s insane that people think that was okay.

Pregnant women are not incubators or vessels, they are people and deserve the same rights and treatment as any other patient, and I think it’s very disturbing that so many people seem to disagree with that notion.

It’s no wonder so many women have birth trauma tbh when things like this happen to them and the responses on this thread are what they get instead of support and compassion.

There are not enough midwives because eif staffing pressures, poor management and a system that traumatised women. Not because someone "won't do as they are told". A lot of us are fighting against the thing you are taking about.

The best thing a woman can do is research antenatal, intrapartum and postnatal care and go on prepared to ask questions and not blindly accept routine interventions without knowing why, benefits, risks and alternatives.

I knew of one who refused epidural on multips as they would just have a baby and it was a waste of their time. Had some great arguments with him.

There’s a huge power imbalance when you’re in the hands of medical professionals. Most people don’t speak up or are not in a position to speak up when medics are telling them that this or that procedure is necessary for the survival of their baby and they are effectively going to have it whether they like it or not.

Lip service is paid to consent and autonomy when it suits them, no matter how ridiculous, like the time a doctor refused to address any comments about symptoms to me and repeatedly asked my five year old to estimate exactly when he first started to feel ill, how long a particular symptom had lasted, how many times he had been sick over the past few days and how he was feeling now on a scale of 1-10! Ds had no idea and was not answering accurately. I had exact timings, and the narrative from ds at my fingertips, but was ignored for some time, while the charade persisted. But when it comes to women and their own bodies…that seems to be a different matter.

Then why didn’t they TELL @NibliaBiblia that there was an emergency, @Squishymama? A moment of calm and them using their words to explain why they thought the ctg was so vital could have saved all that trauma - and valuable time. Not to mention the stress it caused to @NibliaBiblia, which wouldn’t have helped the birth go any more smoothly.

They probably were doing it because they weren't thinking clearly, weren't used to anyone refusing anything, and knew there are no consequences for coercing women to "gain consent".
Maybe there are consequences to not getting VE's, measurements etc, but there are definitely no consequences for violating women's right to control their bodies. That meds to change.

Maybe the same reason I do things like shriek at my DD to get out to the way when I’m carrying a pan of boiling water and she wanders in to ask me something.

I know some people are going to be mad about this; but this is where things like gentle parenting get you 😂

Gentle parenting is why i don't want to be forced flat on my back when I've got my baby's head halfway through my pelvis?
How on earth do people get the idea that having a baby means you don't get to make choices about your body anymore? It's grotesque.
Grotesque and very very sad.

Also @NibliaBiblia might you be a person of colour? Asking due to your username which sounds quite a bit like the Muslim name Nabila (apologies if I’m mistaken)

the reason I’m bringing it up is because it’s in unfortunate reality that women of colour tend to suffer worse maternal outcomes that white women. So it may be the case of a hideous mix of misogyny and racism

I'm not. I dread to think what I might have been put through if I was a black or asian mother, or if I was a young, or single, or disabled, or overweight, or old.