Obstetric violence - legs forced open against my will

[NibliaBiblia]

When I was in labour with my daughter, the midwives spent twenty minutes trying to force my legs open to get me flat on my back with my legs up. There was no emergency. It was so they could get a better CTG reading. I physically resisted for as long as I could and verbally told them to stop. They didn't stop until I gave up. After that they did other things without my consent, but I did not they to stop them again.
I complained to the hospital and they have done nothing. I complained to the police and they told me there must have been an emergency. I've complained to the NMC and the CQC. I hope they will do something but it's a long process so I won't know for a long time.
The police used to say that domestic violence was a private matter. They used to say that if you got in the car/went into the apartment/were drinking then you must have agreed to it. I think this is exactly the same type of justification, applied to equally criminal behaviour.
I don't think my experience is abnormal. I think this is fairly routine. They thought that when I gave up that meant I consented.

They think that because legally that’s exactly the case.

Jehovah witnesses refuse blood transfers. That is their right. It would have to go to court to force it - which has happened regarding children.

It is the case
Fetus has no rights so unless you can prove a lack of capacity, you cant force a mum into a decision to save her unborn baby. If we did have this, then we'd not abort a fetus with a heartbeat even if mum's life is in danger like that woman in Ireland who died.

Let's not forget that on the vast majority of cases the mother cares more than anyone else about her baby's interests.
And medical professionals disagree with each other. They used to think it was dangerous to leave the cod intact. They used to literally handcuff women to their beds.

What's sad is that a lot of the people responding here will be women who gave given birth..so we know that they thought they have no choice or expectation of dignity for themselves. God knows what happened to them

It's really sad, and it makes me grateful that the midwife I had was so professional, fantastic, and communicated everything with me.

I felt treated like a person while giving birth, with everything being explained and consent gained (despite an induction at 42+2), without constant vaginal exams, or a CTG, so I could walk and move around freely. Because of that, I think if later on into my labour she had told me I needed to urgently do x because of y, I would've trusted her enough to cooperate immediately, even if it was something I didn't want to do because of the pain etc. She'd built a rapport and made me feel I could trust her judgement.

There's a difference between an HCP who sees you as a person, and one who sees you as a problem, and I think most patients can sense that and react to it accordingly. OP's midwives clearly saw her as a problem, not a person.

My first birth was low risk, but I was made to lie on my back on a bed for 6 hours. Because I wasn't progressing (surprise), they then started a cascade of intervention ending in special care. I was 24, couldn't advocate for myself well enough, and was traumatised by sone of what happened. There was no need to remain lying on my back, but it was a very busy night at hospital and the midwives decided to do that as they didn't have time to give any care.

Sorry for everyone's horrible experiences x

I'm so sorry. I wish this weren't so common x

I was raped by a HCP when I was 18 and the explicit reason given through those laughing teeth was to teach me a lesson for asking questions. I was in a side room on an ob/gyn ward for hyperemesis gravidarum, door blinds closed, door locked, with that laugh.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. I think sexual abuse and rape by medical professionals is far more common than we realise. I am reminded of this particularly shocking case from last year:

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/30-years-jail-for-brazilian-anaesthesiologist-who-raped-two-women-in-labour

Some health care professionals shouldn't be let near other people. During my second labour a dr badgered me for 15 minutes to allow an internal exam , i refused and she went and got her boss to come and do the same. The boss even asked my husband for permission, then when I got upset the boss had the midwife come in and tell me that if I got upset again they would have security remove me. I was 36 weeks, in labour with a high risk pregnancy. There was no need for an internal exam as the plan was if I went into labour I was to be taken for a section. The hospital was dead that night , i got the feeling they just didnt want the hassle. Down in theatre the two male anaesthetic drs stood up for me against the boss dr and the head midwife. It was a truly traumatic experience and 3 months after that night my dh got the snip.

This is exactly how it worked for me - first midwife tried to make me, spoke as though I had no choice, patronising. Second midwife actually spoke to me and worked with me, and got the result she needed in a different way.

Treating us as human beings is all it takes.

I think what is really missing from this thread is some acknowledgement that the mother and baby were still attached at this point. They were not separate entities.

It is quite shocking that anybody assumes that it is in the best interest of the baby to be wrestled for 20 minutes while in labour. There are very real impacts of maternal distress on the fetus and the progression of the labour, which in turn has an impact on the fetus.

I'm also quite shocked at the number of people who just straight up disbelieve the OP. It's given me a new perspective on online labour discourse and I now see it as worse than some of the worst rape apology pits of the internet.

It is also interesting to me, what is driving this obstetric violence deniers? Are the naysayers disgruntled NHS staff, women who had whale song guided water births because they just wanted it hard enough, or women who had medical interventions that feel they need to justify? I think its a really interesting question, that this thread hasn't answered. OP, I think you are hard as nails fighting this.

I completely support the OP's aims of a radical overhaul of how these complaints are dealt with. I doubt Mumsnet will though, having seen how this thread has gone.

@NibliaBiblia is there a reason there were so many people in the room at that time? I only had one midwife throughout labour. Had complications afterwards so I needed a consultant then

I remember exactly why I started furiously researching birth.

I was 20 weeks pregnant with my first baby and they had given me an obstetric review. This was the first issue. They gave me that because I was referred to a specialist midwife simply because I'd previously been in prison.

This (fantastic) midwife and her colleagues used to see all the women with "social problems" of any description. It makes sense that many people with "social problems" also have risk factors in terms of their health, like drug use or mental health issues. They have also had babies before, many by caesarean. So it makes sense for their system to automatically book a doctor review for everyone who is referred to her team.

Except, that wasnt relevant for me. I was working, in my own place, no history of serious drug use (weed only), no medical issues, no previous births. I didn't need to see a doctor as I was low risk. I barely needed to see her (but she would come to my place for appointments so wasn't changing that!).

This highlighted to me that the system is not individualised.

You’re on the Feminism board and you don’t believe a woman describing a traumatic event. Seriously?? I thought we believed women round here.

You know that thing, is it Parson's Law or something. Not going to Google it. But it's about people adhering to "the sick role" and believing others should, too. So if they perceive another member of society as sick and not adhering to the protocol of a sick person (resting, obeying medical experts, grateful for assistance), then they perceive them as either disingenuous or deviant.

@Lexibletheflexible There is a big issue with the way that the NHS applies 'High Risk' and 'Low Risk' labels as a way to gatekeep access to care. Those labels were developed in the 1950s by statisticians looking at the safety of birth at a population level, they were never intended to be used as actual clinical labels for women that determined care.

I agree the false binaries promoted in perinatal care are a big problem. Vaginal birth vs c-section, maternity ward vs labour ward. Heaven help you if you move between the two categories after going into labour.

I feel I was misassigned the 'low risk' label, as my endometriosis wasn't diagnosed at the time. I think that played a significant role in my undiagnosed labour dystocia. This meant that access to admission, pain relief, observation and treatment were all significantly delayed. All because of false binary misused label.

Yes i think for everyone like me who is given an unnecessary review on an obstetric pathway, there is likely a woman who is incorrectly on a low risk pathway and not receiving the extra care she needs

I too am shocked by the number of people who flat out disbelieve OP and have been incredibly nasty about it too. I have reported several posts that have now thankfully been deleted. Do people not know about the Ockenden or Amos reviews? Some really bad stuff happens in labour rooms. Not all midwives are saints.

I too had to labour on my back after my waters were broken, meconium was seen, the monitor wouldn’t stay in place when I was standing up. The baby was back to back, and then the whole cascade of epidural / ventouse / high rotational forceps in theatre kicked in. Nobody forced me at any point but it wasn’t great.

Yes me too. Elective CSs for all of them for exactly this reason. Women are treated as cattle sometimes. Medical misogyny is not restricted to men.

Ah, you didn’t specify pregnant women in what I was replying to, although I appreciate it was heavily implied by the thread. Of course women can’t be “free” to cause the death of, say, a two- or ten-year-old.

I think what shocked me was seeing the statement put so starkly, when it requires quite a lot of contextualisation. I presume you mean that the choice (to refuse treatment that would save an unborn baby) would arise only in the most unusual circumstances..

I absolutely agree that medicine has historically failed women in profound ways, and needs dramatic reform. But I worry that the growing discourse around free birthing and mistrust of HCPs can encourage women to refuse life-saving treatment in the belief that doing so is an expression of “freedom”. In some cases, that leads to profound trauma for women who lose a baby they desperately wanted. Real freedom would be a woman-centred medical system and the knowledge to make truly informed choices.

But genuinely woman-centred, holistic medical system would take decades to build, whereas the idea that you can simply take control yourself appears to offers an immediate solution.

I transferred from home to hospital due to the meconium, so there was more than one person at the handover and i guess when i didn't get on my back like a good girl they all stayed instead of just leaving. Then when they couldn't physically overpower me they called another midwife into the room to help them (from the notes).
I think that's why they didn't see me as a real person. They didn't meet me until i was fully dilated so i wasn't chatting and discussing things normally. My thinking was perfectly clear but it was a struggle to get words out.

My previous post was meant to be a reply to this, sorry!

Just editing to say that as I try to say above, I don’t think this is the positive or liberating claim that some today claim it is. I think it’s profoundly disturbing (why do I keep saying profound haha) that we’re even having these conversations. Why would women refuse life saving treatment for her baby, apart from in the most unusual circumstances? I feel like we’re only talking about this because of the rise of discourses that are just as murky and problematic as some healthcare practices. Surely women don’t want the main way they can exercise freedom in the context of medicine to be to let their baby die.

I had a horrible birth but thanks to the team I came away with a healthy baby. That wasn’t at all a guaranteed outcome.

That's the thing, it's not about more intervention or less intervention, it's about listening to women and treating them like human beings. Wish it wasn't that difficult.