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Feminism: sex and gender

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5
skamama · 22/11/2025 21:15

That is terrifying! How have they not been arrested,what they are doing is sick! I kept gasping as I read that article. It just kept getting worse and worse.

MarmaladeMarxist · 22/11/2025 21:19

I read this and thought the same.

I came out of my NHS hospital birth feeling lucky to have "just" been neglected and treated without any dignity, but not actually harmed (physically).

No wonder women want an alternative.

But this isn't a safe alternative, and we are letting women and babies down badly by allowing maternity care to be so poor that this looks more appealing.

WhereAreWeNow · 23/11/2025 09:09

Terrifying article.

Driftingawaynow · 24/11/2025 17:29

It’s so shocking the shite people come out with and the fact that people get brainwashed into believing it

Porkychops · 09/12/2025 08:41

This is terrible but I can understand why women are drawn to it. Birth in the US is heavily medicalised wheress here in the Uk it is woefully unsupported. Like the poster above I was neglected and actually verbally abused by a midwife during birth and was grateful to come away with a healthy baby and myself intact. I later felt that I had actually freebirthed whilst in hospital as the midwife was more of a hindrance.

PermanentTemporary · 09/12/2025 08:55

Oh God. What a terrible story. Those poor babies. And a couple of conwomen, murderers.

Original poster
Carla786 · 09/12/2025 17:01

More terrible articles on this evil society...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2025/dec/03/death-of-irish-mother-in-free-birth-reveals-how-poor-maternity-care-is-pushing-women-towards-extreme-influencers&ved=2ahUKEwj1oeTN_bCRAxWbVkEAHQ71GfYQFnoECCwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1L2iMvAT5NSstsunTlj5G2

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/dec/09/couple-twins-stillborn-birth-keeper-they-blame

https://www.google.com/url?opi=89978449&rct=j&sa=t&source=web&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Flifeandstyle%2Fng-interactive%2F2025%2Fdec%2F03%2Fdeath-of-irish-mother-in-free-birth-reveals-how-poor-maternity-care-is-pushing-women-towards-extreme-influencers&usg=AOvVaw1L2iMvAT5NSstsunTlj5G2&ved=2ahUKEwj1oeTN_bCRAxWbVkEAHQ71GfYQFnoECCwQAQ

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PlazaAthenee · 09/12/2025 17:08

Con-women and murderers sums them up well.

I was looking at their Instagram before it got locked down. Incredibly nasty, manipulative pieces of work, the lot of them.

earlyr1ser · 12/12/2025 20:01

Their technique is very similar to the one used by “reactionary feminists”. Locate the sense of abandonment and neglect that most mothers feel; zone in; then sell some seriously dodgy ideas. Heard a prominent one the other day advocating sterilisation for people who have “criminal genes”.

I guess this merits a thread of its own - no intent to derail. But a key part of the story here is how utterly invisible mothers are, and how vulnerable this can make us.

Original poster
Carla786 · 12/12/2025 22:42

earlyr1ser · 12/12/2025 20:01

Their technique is very similar to the one used by “reactionary feminists”. Locate the sense of abandonment and neglect that most mothers feel; zone in; then sell some seriously dodgy ideas. Heard a prominent one the other day advocating sterilisation for people who have “criminal genes”.

I guess this merits a thread of its own - no intent to derail. But a key part of the story here is how utterly invisible mothers are, and how vulnerable this can make us.

Edited

Agree with you. Who was this one who was advocating that?

I have to laugh at people like Louise Perry & Mary Harrington advocating early marriage and dependence on husband, saying we need to 'rewild' sex by eschewing artificial contraception (even if they dislike the pill, there are other ways) & romanticising medieval women brewing or working in agriculture,
when they themselves have uni degrees, didn't marry in their early 20s, have average numbers of kids not huge families, and work at average desk jobs, as well as making money from podcasts, lectures, journalism etc (rather than depending financially on their husbands & concentrating on being SAHMs). Harrington has legitimate criticisms of childcare but also goes too far, yet she's admitted herself she uses childcare.

OP posts:
earlyr1ser · 12/12/2025 23:09

Carla786 · 12/12/2025 22:42

Agree with you. Who was this one who was advocating that?

I have to laugh at people like Louise Perry & Mary Harrington advocating early marriage and dependence on husband, saying we need to 'rewild' sex by eschewing artificial contraception (even if they dislike the pill, there are other ways) & romanticising medieval women brewing or working in agriculture,
when they themselves have uni degrees, didn't marry in their early 20s, have average numbers of kids not huge families, and work at average desk jobs, as well as making money from podcasts, lectures, journalism etc (rather than depending financially on their husbands & concentrating on being SAHMs). Harrington has legitimate criticisms of childcare but also goes too far, yet she's admitted herself she uses childcare.

Edited
Show quote history

Oh, no prizes for guessing, it was Louise Perry off on one about ending “dysgenic fertility”.

As you say, monetising yourself by condemning working mothers requires a dose of cynicism that could double up as a nerve agent.

Just about the most charitable reading I can place on what they’re selling, though, is that it’s a “fawn/friend” trauma response: faced with the seemingly unassailable power of men, embodying traditional femininity, so as to secure a powerful provider, can appear to be the least-worst strategy. Dworkin btw wrote about this in depth, in ‘Right-Wing Women’.

In some ways, the freebirthers are the same. The stillbirths, like the battered wives, are the statistical outriders: the median distribution of women who happen to have successful natural labours, like the margin of women who happen to have secure and happy marriages, is wide enough to create an illusion of safety. But, as your OP shows: where the potential harm is severe, small risks are not, in fact, small.

Lalgarh · 13/12/2025 02:24

There was a Woman's Hour on this a few days ago

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002n7lq?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile.

I first heard about this a few months back after another radio documentary that actually interviews some of the women who are signed up for this. The one who says she won't have human intervention BC she's on the spectrum and "women are Amaaaaaaazing" is particularly frightening

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002546t

Woman's Hour - Freebirthing, Author Sarah Mughal Rana, Syria: One year on - BBC Sounds

We hear why freebirthing is the subject of a new investigation by the Guardian.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002n7lq?origin=share-mobile.&partner=uk.co.bbc

Original poster
Carla786 · 13/12/2025 22:10

earlyr1ser · 12/12/2025 23:09

Oh, no prizes for guessing, it was Louise Perry off on one about ending “dysgenic fertility”.

As you say, monetising yourself by condemning working mothers requires a dose of cynicism that could double up as a nerve agent.

Just about the most charitable reading I can place on what they’re selling, though, is that it’s a “fawn/friend” trauma response: faced with the seemingly unassailable power of men, embodying traditional femininity, so as to secure a powerful provider, can appear to be the least-worst strategy. Dworkin btw wrote about this in depth, in ‘Right-Wing Women’.

In some ways, the freebirthers are the same. The stillbirths, like the battered wives, are the statistical outriders: the median distribution of women who happen to have successful natural labours, like the margin of women who happen to have secure and happy marriages, is wide enough to create an illusion of safety. But, as your OP shows: where the potential harm is severe, small risks are not, in fact, small.

Show quote history

Thank you. That's concerning in the extreme about Louise Perry.

Was she definitely saying 'criminal' people should be forcibly sterilised? I ask because she has made points before about large families in the UK now often being by reckless/uncaring people (Constance Marten types) who have kids out of indifference rather than due to positively wanting them. I think this is a valid point, but it can turn nasty easily, and sounds like she may be going down that path...

It's increasingly obvious that Perry is trying to serve multiple incompatible audiences, radicalised incel/'new right' types who like race science, eugenics, and Christianity (bc it's Western rather than any other reason), conservative Christians from mild Anglicans to fiery US evangelicals, radical feminists (platforming people like Julie Bindel etc ) and reactionary feminist types who range from paid-up supporters to people who think she has some good points re sexual revolution but is getting a bit weird.

This explains why she can write for First Things about how Christianity opposes eugenics & then turn around & platform open eugenicist & race scientist Diana Fleischmann on her podcast. She's invited various people on her podcast who are at best unsavoury. They don't usually discuss their dodgiest opinions but I do think there have to be hard limits. Perry could easily bring on scientists who could discuss sex, reproduction etc but they wouldn't have the taboo/'heterodox' buzz she wants...

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earlyr1ser · 13/12/2025 22:44

She’s very clearly waiting for her moment to enter politics, Not to be trusted.

Bobbieiris · 14/12/2025 22:08

I’ve been listening to the guardian podcast on this today and my jaw has dropped on several occasions! I came across a woman on social media encouraging expectant twin mothers to free birth and I pointed out that if I had followed that advice then my twins would have died…the backlash was hugeee I couldn’t believe it!
so sad that women are sucked into it.
as already pointed out though it is almost sadly understandable….The midwife’s, doctors and anaesthetist during my girls birth were fab however the post natal ward was grim…just left to change my own bedsheets after a natural birth and C section all in one morning etc..a bit of a shock!
I had never heard of this ‘society’ or these two women before. Half way through the podcast so wonder what else will come from it

Original poster
Carla786 · 14/12/2025 22:09

earlyr1ser · 13/12/2025 22:44

She’s very clearly waiting for her moment to enter politics, Not to be trusted.

Yikes, I can imagine that getting weird fast.

It's very sad that work that started out as making legitimate points about porn, hookup culture etc has become anti-women in its own way.

Incidentally, this is another issue I have with Perry. Hookup culture was much more of a thing for her generation, Millenials. Gen Z has sexual issues but Brendan O'Neill, flawed as he is, has a point when he argues the focus on hookups is tilting at windmills given Gen Z are shying from them.

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Bobbieiris · 14/12/2025 22:09

Also @Lalgarh i love women’s hour so I’ll listen to that too. Absolutely mad how people believe that birth isn’t a medical thing!

Original poster
Carla786 · 14/12/2025 22:15

Bobbieiris · 14/12/2025 22:09

Also @Lalgarh i love women’s hour so I’ll listen to that too. Absolutely mad how people believe that birth isn’t a medical thing!

Here's a few more links & some older articles. It seems that Covid may have led to an earlier uptick.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/nov/25/nhs-directed-pregnant-women-to-controversial-free-birth-society-via-charity

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/ng-interactive/2025/dec/03/death-of-irish-mother-in-free-birth-reveals-how-poor-maternity-care-is-pushing-women-towards-extreme-influencers

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/nov/23/ignorant-and-life-threatening-experts-condemn-free-birth-society-misinformation

I wonder if Covid and anxiety over mainstream medicine then could have led to people looking at freebirth stuff on Internet too. Especially with rise of TikTok etc

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/sep/14/freebirthing-birth-without-medical-support-safe

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/apr/05/expectant-mothers-turn-to-freebirthing-after-home-births-cancelled

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/dec/05/women-give-birth-alone-the-rise-of-freebirthing

NHS directed pregnant women to controversial Free Birth Society via charity

Exclusive: NHS websites pointed women to factsheet featuring podcast by ‘dangerous’ influencers linked to baby deaths

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2025/nov/25/nhs-directed-pregnant-women-to-controversial-free-birth-society-via-charity

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Livpool · 14/12/2025 22:33

I’m sorry but these women must know that what they are doing isn’t safe. They make that decision

Original poster
Carla786 · 15/12/2025 01:42

Livpool · 14/12/2025 22:33

I’m sorry but these women must know that what they are doing isn’t safe. They make that decision

I imagine they're targeting particularly vulnerable people often. On another thread on this, a poster described her DIL getting 'brainwashed'. Cults can ensnare plenty of people, including normally sensible ones, if they use the right tactics & especially target them when they're vulnerable

OP posts:
Original poster
Carla786 · 15/12/2025 01:55

This article, from a few years back, I think is also relevant

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/17/birthing-women-may-feel-fear-but-it-should-not-be-about-midwives-and-obstetricians?utm_source=chatgpt.com

The book by Antonella Gambotto-Burke they mention was mainly covered in Australia (she writes for The Australian) but it's extreme and unhelpful claims about anaesthetic use during labour were shamefully little-challenged, and the book was serialised for The Australian. Unsurprisingly, Gambotto-Burke admires Ina May Gaskin, one of the biggest promoters of 'normal birth' ideology.

Worryingly, the NHS had disastrously been promoting this ideology via the NCT until recently.

https://www.theguardian.com/wellness/article/2024/jun/06/childbirth-natural-birth-c-section-epidural

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/article/2024/aug/27/women-feel-like-failures-if-they-havent-had-a-normal-birth-how-the-nct-has-shaped-childbirth-in-the-uk#:~:text=When%20ideology%20enters%20healthcare%2C%20things,contributing%20factor%20in%20maternity%20scandals.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/midwife-maternity-university-education-natural-births-investigation-2dbg80l0c?gaa_at=eafs&gaa_n=AWEtsqfELy-jqZo0jOWrncuZSpx3fHaaLptPXaKi80bxFgKIKXf7KWs6jg6o2lr1HPU%3D&gaa_ts=693f6d65&gaa_sig=KJn9GyhioFX933kdo8jVShcYITQPqUtT_K_ktg8YDRMZDKz1hhBROqBB_z0FeoP9X_p05Uhcig_cCOs1p9Z9SQ%3D%3D&gearefresh=

Birthing women may feel fear, but it should not be about midwives and obstetricians | Kae Sheen Wong

A disturbing trend has emerged in coverage of birth trauma, but medical professionals are not people parents should have to assert themselves against

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jul/17/birthing-women-may-feel-fear-but-it-should-not-be-about-midwives-and-obstetricians

OP posts:
Original poster
Carla786 · 15/12/2025 03:05

earlyr1ser · 12/12/2025 23:09

Oh, no prizes for guessing, it was Louise Perry off on one about ending “dysgenic fertility”.

As you say, monetising yourself by condemning working mothers requires a dose of cynicism that could double up as a nerve agent.

Just about the most charitable reading I can place on what they’re selling, though, is that it’s a “fawn/friend” trauma response: faced with the seemingly unassailable power of men, embodying traditional femininity, so as to secure a powerful provider, can appear to be the least-worst strategy. Dworkin btw wrote about this in depth, in ‘Right-Wing Women’.

In some ways, the freebirthers are the same. The stillbirths, like the battered wives, are the statistical outriders: the median distribution of women who happen to have successful natural labours, like the margin of women who happen to have secure and happy marriages, is wide enough to create an illusion of safety. But, as your OP shows: where the potential harm is severe, small risks are not, in fact, small.

Show quote history

I agree re the similarity with freebirthers.

I value Right Wing Women a lot, but otoh I'm not sure how well that applies to Perry. 'Unassailable power of men' - misogyny is definitely alive and kicking, but these days women can earn an independent income and become self-sufficient without a partner. It's not like Perry is living a 'trad' lifestyle herself, she has multiple commercial ventures going. Otoh the 'fawn' thing could be more of response to her research on sexual violence. She has said her husband is a policeman & consciously or not, this seems to influence her views of husbands as protective figures, male violence is focused on in the context of hookups etc. Ofc this flatters her 'trad' male audience, and conveniently ignores that police officers,, among others,,are hardly exempt from DV & SA (potentially even have elevated rates)

OP posts:
Livpool · 15/12/2025 10:38

Carla786 · 15/12/2025 01:42

I imagine they're targeting particularly vulnerable people often. On another thread on this, a poster described her DIL getting 'brainwashed'. Cults can ensnare plenty of people, including normally sensible ones, if they use the right tactics & especially target them when they're vulnerable

Show quote history

I agree to a certain degree but they have their own agency. I know someone dogmatic about this and honestly I have told her but have to leave her to it.

Bobbieiris · 15/12/2025 12:01

@Carla786 hasn’t the NCT always been about this…natural birth, breastfeeding. They’re quite vocal about it aren’t they?