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Feminism: chat
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Carla786 · 15/12/2025 12:28

Bobbieiris · 15/12/2025 12:01

@Carla786 hasn’t the NCT always been about this…natural birth, breastfeeding. They’re quite vocal about it aren’t they?

Yes, the Guardian have done some very good investigations into this

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earlyr1ser · 16/12/2025 07:59

Carla786 · 14/12/2025 22:09

Yikes, I can imagine that getting weird fast.

It's very sad that work that started out as making legitimate points about porn, hookup culture etc has become anti-women in its own way.

Incidentally, this is another issue I have with Perry. Hookup culture was much more of a thing for her generation, Millenials. Gen Z has sexual issues but Brendan O'Neill, flawed as he is, has a point when he argues the focus on hookups is tilting at windmills given Gen Z are shying from them.

Yes, the “hookup culture” she describes is specific to the first decade of mass smartphone use. Brendan O’Neill has also observed that it was unknown in the nineties, a good thirty years after the sexual revolution.

LP very much knows what she’s doing, however. A whole generation of millennial women feel let down by feminism, and justifiably so: it’s no good pointing out that votes and education are a wonderful thing if your vote can’t seem to bring in a government that cares about mothers, and your education is impossible to use to because you’re at home caring for the children.

I guess this is what I meant by the unassailable power of men. They’ve conceded certain freedoms - always when there is a collateral gain for themselves - but many mothers still have to live as though it’s 1870. The resulting cohort of angry and disappointed women are easy meat for grifters like Perry.

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Creepybookworm · 22/12/2025 04:40

Bobbieiris · 15/12/2025 12:01

@Carla786 hasn’t the NCT always been about this…natural birth, breastfeeding. They’re quite vocal about it aren’t they?

No they are not. They promote informed decision making. They try to help women breastfeed if they want to. The days of them promoting natural childbirth are long gone and they cover caesarean and assisted birth in classes.

The state of maternity services now means that so many women are coming out of the process traumatised that they are looking for an alternative. The safest alternative would be an independent midwife but that's out of most women's budget hence turning to free birth nutters.

PollyBell · 22/12/2025 04:42

Any harm comes to the baby then yes the parents should be charged with murder, child endangement or any other criminal charged relevant and no excuses

Amorphic · 27/12/2025 05:20

I’ve just listened to this podcast - some of the saddest situations and I’m so terrorised and disgusted.
Who could ever put a vulnerable mother and newborn at this kind of risk? I really hope the free birth society gets shut down asap and the owners and facilitators go to prison for causing needless deaths.
Thats some powerful brainwashing ego job on these mothers to have them stay unassisted in labour for nearly a week, with meconium leaking out of them.

So sad. What are they all thinking.
Is an unassisted birth really worth your baby’s life or wellbeing?
Fucking hell.

Amorphic · 27/12/2025 05:35

Emilee Saldaya and Yolande Norris-Clark are utterly rapacious and belong in a jail.

WhereAreWeNow · 27/12/2025 09:08

Just finished the podcast. Really excellent investigative journalism. I'm really glad The Guardian has given this investigation the profile it deserves.

The bit where the South African woman said she thought it must all be above board because she saw white women at the "midwife's" practice broke my heart.

Lalgarh · 27/12/2025 11:49

Interesting insight. I've not listened to this but if they want the authentic free birthing experience they can maybe try Afghanistan where the Taliban have forbidden female doctors and where men are barred from treating women, leaving many to die during childbirth.

Maybe also Burkina Faso

Amorphic · 27/12/2025 12:30

Or why even stop at birth? All medical intervention.
These people are normalising avoidable infant death, and making a fortune from it.

Yolande N-C charged a mother who followed their advice $800 for a grief session after his baby died and used them time to her it wasn’t her problem/fault.

I’m utterly disgusted by them.

persephonia · 17/01/2026 21:01

Carla786 · 13/12/2025 22:10

Thank you. That's concerning in the extreme about Louise Perry.

Was she definitely saying 'criminal' people should be forcibly sterilised? I ask because she has made points before about large families in the UK now often being by reckless/uncaring people (Constance Marten types) who have kids out of indifference rather than due to positively wanting them. I think this is a valid point, but it can turn nasty easily, and sounds like she may be going down that path...

It's increasingly obvious that Perry is trying to serve multiple incompatible audiences, radicalised incel/'new right' types who like race science, eugenics, and Christianity (bc it's Western rather than any other reason), conservative Christians from mild Anglicans to fiery US evangelicals, radical feminists (platforming people like Julie Bindel etc ) and reactionary feminist types who range from paid-up supporters to people who think she has some good points re sexual revolution but is getting a bit weird.

This explains why she can write for First Things about how Christianity opposes eugenics & then turn around & platform open eugenicist & race scientist Diana Fleischmann on her podcast. She's invited various people on her podcast who are at best unsavoury. They don't usually discuss their dodgiest opinions but I do think there have to be hard limits. Perry could easily bring on scientists who could discuss sex, reproduction etc but they wouldn't have the taboo/'heterodox' buzz she wants...

There's also a bit of classism going on there and in the free birthing cult.

In the UK the people who do practice the reality of what Harrington and Perry preach the most are from the traveller/Romany community. Girls leave school early a lot of the time, they tend to marry young, very traditional gender roles and focus on raising families being important for the women/girls. Generally though you don't see conservative voices championing them as role models. In fact it's viewed as a sign of backwardness. However, it's fine for Middle Class well educated women like MH and LP to advocate for exactly the same attitude towards female education/gender roles or very posh, floaty dressed women to post wafty Instagram posts about their lives as trad wives.

I think the free birthing movement was pushed in a similarly aspirational way. The women at the head all seemed quite posh/well educated. While traditionally most of the women giving birth in "free birthing" conditions would have been seriously deprived and had bad outcomes. But there isn't much thought as to why that it.

Maybe it's a reach. But in both cases I think class differences (and possibly race) help to mask the difference between reality and the idealised version. Women in the Romany community might suffer more from DV/find it much harder to leave. But that's because they are all a bit scummy. Not because the lack of job experiences/money/community expectation make them more vulnerable. Yes more women in places where there is no reliable health care die giving birth than the UK. But those women in the third world probably didn't have a doula who was in touch with her inner feminine Mystique. There was the one women in the article who very sadly did feel safe because the lady who put herself forward as an expert was white and upper class. Part of the reason they were trusted was their status.

persephonia · 17/01/2026 21:06

WhereAreWeNow · 27/12/2025 09:08

Just finished the podcast. Really excellent investigative journalism. I'm really glad The Guardian has given this investigation the profile it deserves.

The bit where the South African woman said she thought it must all be above board because she saw white women at the "midwife's" practice broke my heart.

That's the bit that really got me. It's completely capitalising on a false impression of trustworthiness/professionalism. Just evil

Carla786 · 18/01/2026 00:24

persephonia · 17/01/2026 21:01

There's also a bit of classism going on there and in the free birthing cult.

In the UK the people who do practice the reality of what Harrington and Perry preach the most are from the traveller/Romany community. Girls leave school early a lot of the time, they tend to marry young, very traditional gender roles and focus on raising families being important for the women/girls. Generally though you don't see conservative voices championing them as role models. In fact it's viewed as a sign of backwardness. However, it's fine for Middle Class well educated women like MH and LP to advocate for exactly the same attitude towards female education/gender roles or very posh, floaty dressed women to post wafty Instagram posts about their lives as trad wives.

I think the free birthing movement was pushed in a similarly aspirational way. The women at the head all seemed quite posh/well educated. While traditionally most of the women giving birth in "free birthing" conditions would have been seriously deprived and had bad outcomes. But there isn't much thought as to why that it.

Maybe it's a reach. But in both cases I think class differences (and possibly race) help to mask the difference between reality and the idealised version. Women in the Romany community might suffer more from DV/find it much harder to leave. But that's because they are all a bit scummy. Not because the lack of job experiences/money/community expectation make them more vulnerable. Yes more women in places where there is no reliable health care die giving birth than the UK. But those women in the third world probably didn't have a doula who was in touch with her inner feminine Mystique. There was the one women in the article who very sadly did feel safe because the lady who put herself forward as an expert was white and upper class. Part of the reason they were trusted was their status.

That's a good comparison imo. I watched the series Growing Up Gypsy with Stacey Dooley and the things some of the girls there said made me think of Mary Harrington!

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persephonia · 18/01/2026 00:56

Carla786 · 18/01/2026 00:24

That's a good comparison imo. I watched the series Growing Up Gypsy with Stacey Dooley and the things some of the girls there said made me think of Mary Harrington!

I know people from the traveller community. They are really good people. It is a completely different way of life and that has good points and bad points. I can accept that people live different lives just as I can accept some of the trad wife brigade want to live very different lives to me. What's odd is the completely double standard between when travellers/gypsies advocate a certain life to when someone with a wealthy background and a degree does.

persephonia · 18/01/2026 01:02

Likewise, I think the people behind the Free birth society were maybe able to get away with pushing their dangerous practices for a lot longer because of their background/education level/class. Maybe it even made them seem more trustworthy/reasonable to professional bodies. It shouldn't matter and it's not the most important part of the story (that would be the needless deaths). But it's interesting. I say this as someone who definitely tends towards being a middle class "crunchy mum" myself.

Strangeencounter · 18/01/2026 01:52

Creepybookworm · 22/12/2025 04:40

No they are not. They promote informed decision making. They try to help women breastfeed if they want to. The days of them promoting natural childbirth are long gone and they cover caesarean and assisted birth in classes.

The state of maternity services now means that so many women are coming out of the process traumatised that they are looking for an alternative. The safest alternative would be an independent midwife but that's out of most women's budget hence turning to free birth nutters.

I don’t know tbh.

I attended an nct with 8 other couples. Afterwards a number had to have assisted or c sections and many were upset about it and angry at nct for promoting natural births.

I supported them by listening etc and acknowledging their feelings but on the other hand I thought it was complete insanity. I went to those exact same sessions and they were a big driver in my choice to have a planned maternal request c section. I can’t actually remember what made me want the C. It might have even been so batshit ‘nature’ that I thought fuck that. I really can’t remember.

But it’s mental that the exact same experience can have such different reactions. But it’s clearly a real one. Many of the girls felt the same and I have heard it countless times across countless baby groups. People do have a big problem with nct and feel it does champion ‘ nature’. As a c mum I don’t agree - they actually put me off - but I am an outlier.

Strangeencounter · 18/01/2026 01:55

And I hope these women here and fake midwives get arrested. This is appalling.

Creepybookworm · 18/01/2026 02:09

Strangeencounter · 18/01/2026 01:52

I don’t know tbh.

I attended an nct with 8 other couples. Afterwards a number had to have assisted or c sections and many were upset about it and angry at nct for promoting natural births.

I supported them by listening etc and acknowledging their feelings but on the other hand I thought it was complete insanity. I went to those exact same sessions and they were a big driver in my choice to have a planned maternal request c section. I can’t actually remember what made me want the C. It might have even been so batshit ‘nature’ that I thought fuck that. I really can’t remember.

But it’s mental that the exact same experience can have such different reactions. But it’s clearly a real one. Many of the girls felt the same and I have heard it countless times across countless baby groups. People do have a big problem with nct and feel it does champion ‘ nature’. As a c mum I don’t agree - they actually put me off - but I am an outlier.

I worked for the NCT for 10 years. When I first started I met a few NCT teachers who ran classes that didn't even teach c sections and other interventions as they they believed that doing so.made them.more likely to happen.....batshit in my opinion. The NCT insisted that all.their teachers cover caesarean birth and other other interventions years ago. Tje NCT as an organisation is definitely not pro-natural.birth and has has not been for a good few years. I.actually think the NCT should be shouting to the roof tops about the state of maternity services and the fact that over 50% of births are by caesarean, that coerced induction is causing huge rates of trauma for women and that the resulting forceps can cause life long injuries. As a result they are just becoming one of a number of antental class providers in a sea of profit driven businesses. Because they don't make a profit I predict they won't exist in 5 years anyway.

earlyr1ser · 18/01/2026 14:01

persephonia · 18/01/2026 01:02

Likewise, I think the people behind the Free birth society were maybe able to get away with pushing their dangerous practices for a lot longer because of their background/education level/class. Maybe it even made them seem more trustworthy/reasonable to professional bodies. It shouldn't matter and it's not the most important part of the story (that would be the needless deaths). But it's interesting. I say this as someone who definitely tends towards being a middle class "crunchy mum" myself.

Class (in the UK) is such a powerful force. Did you catch the LP interview, I think it was with Chris Williamson, where she dismissed DV as mainly a problem for people from the lower classes?

I've noticed, meanwhile, that LP and MH have been very quiet about the Grok story. Not a surprise: AI-generated explicit content doesn't involve a woman making a questionable decision, so as a proxy-target for an attack on women having agency, it has no polemical value.

Revulsion at the idea of preventable stillbirth has dealt a serious blow to the freebirthers. But what could do equivalent damage to the likes of LP and MH, or to their transparently dodgy agenda? You could read Mein Kampf in a purring John Lewis voice and English middle classes would lap it up.

persephonia · 18/01/2026 14:14

earlyr1ser · 18/01/2026 14:01

Class (in the UK) is such a powerful force. Did you catch the LP interview, I think it was with Chris Williamson, where she dismissed DV as mainly a problem for people from the lower classes?

I've noticed, meanwhile, that LP and MH have been very quiet about the Grok story. Not a surprise: AI-generated explicit content doesn't involve a woman making a questionable decision, so as a proxy-target for an attack on women having agency, it has no polemical value.

Revulsion at the idea of preventable stillbirth has dealt a serious blow to the freebirthers. But what could do equivalent damage to the likes of LP and MH, or to their transparently dodgy agenda? You could read Mein Kampf in a purring John Lewis voice and English middle classes would lap it up.

Agree. Its also because if you want to be heard on Twitter you need Musk on side. So there's a strong reason not to piss him of. Plus, if you talk about it on Twitter you are inviting men to then post AI manipulated images of you. Brave new world...

But yes, classism is a huge problem. I didn't watch that interview because I have a strong visceral reaction to Chris Williamson and it's not very fair to him. He's no worse than any other youtuber in that space. But his face and voice just irk me for no logical reason.

In terms of what makes a difference. There have been right wing women like Lauren Southern burnt by the reality of the trad wife life who have talked about it publically. But I don't know if it makes much difference as they just get discarded as bitter and the audience moves on. Ashley St Claires (and probably Grimes) another one who was seriously burnt. Although thats more pro-natalist.than really trad I guess. Either way they got locked into horrendous custody battles with the richest man in the world. One would hope women would look at that and think maybe some men will take advantage if they have all the rights and power.

NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 18/01/2026 14:39

This is horrific.

I had to stop reading that first article: it's making me physically nauseous.

Saldaya instructing Holliday to labour for 6 days – 6 days! – repeatedly deleting advice from a midwife that Holliday needs to get to hospital, and the baby dies.

But when Saldaya herself has trouble in labour – oops, away she skips to hospital for a successful outcome.

And I do get that people can make honest mistakes while doing their best in good faith, and that they can learn. But combined with Saldaya's grift... "how to further monetize a practice that is, by definition, free".

And doing all this knowing that her stock in trade is women's trust and their lives and their babies' lives... Brrrr.

earlyr1ser · 18/01/2026 20:46

persephonia · 18/01/2026 14:14

Agree. Its also because if you want to be heard on Twitter you need Musk on side. So there's a strong reason not to piss him of. Plus, if you talk about it on Twitter you are inviting men to then post AI manipulated images of you. Brave new world...

But yes, classism is a huge problem. I didn't watch that interview because I have a strong visceral reaction to Chris Williamson and it's not very fair to him. He's no worse than any other youtuber in that space. But his face and voice just irk me for no logical reason.

In terms of what makes a difference. There have been right wing women like Lauren Southern burnt by the reality of the trad wife life who have talked about it publically. But I don't know if it makes much difference as they just get discarded as bitter and the audience moves on. Ashley St Claires (and probably Grimes) another one who was seriously burnt. Although thats more pro-natalist.than really trad I guess. Either way they got locked into horrendous custody battles with the richest man in the world. One would hope women would look at that and think maybe some men will take advantage if they have all the rights and power.

You’d have hoped that more women would see the danger of trad life and steer well clear. But much of its appeal lies in the way that it downplays this exact danger.

Think about it: if you’re unhappy enough to have real regrets about your marriage, but not so unhappy that you absolutely have to leave, constant warnings about the social harm caused by single parents will sound very comforting. By staying in your unhappy relationship, you’re not wasting the years you have left to find meaning and connection elsewhere; no, you’re making a noble sacrifice. Likewise: if the workplace screwed you over royally when you asked for maternity leave or flexible hours, then you’ll gulp down any old content that details the “damage” that working mothers do to their children. The fact that the paragon fronting the content is herself a working mother won’t bother you at all. Sanctimony is better than gin, and it’s cheaper.

For the same reasons, the natural childbirth moment made a much bigger impact in healthcare-scarce America. If a hospital birth costs a five-figure sum just on the insurance excess, and if money is tight, wouldn’t you prefer to be told that popping your baby out “as nature intended” is the wiser, better choice?

Lift any stone and you’ll find weird, ugly things beneath it. There’s no stone like domestic entrapment. And there are few things uglier than women telling other women - usually in return for money - that it’s safest to choose danger.

persephonia · 18/01/2026 21:57

earlyr1ser · 18/01/2026 20:46

You’d have hoped that more women would see the danger of trad life and steer well clear. But much of its appeal lies in the way that it downplays this exact danger.

Think about it: if you’re unhappy enough to have real regrets about your marriage, but not so unhappy that you absolutely have to leave, constant warnings about the social harm caused by single parents will sound very comforting. By staying in your unhappy relationship, you’re not wasting the years you have left to find meaning and connection elsewhere; no, you’re making a noble sacrifice. Likewise: if the workplace screwed you over royally when you asked for maternity leave or flexible hours, then you’ll gulp down any old content that details the “damage” that working mothers do to their children. The fact that the paragon fronting the content is herself a working mother won’t bother you at all. Sanctimony is better than gin, and it’s cheaper.

For the same reasons, the natural childbirth moment made a much bigger impact in healthcare-scarce America. If a hospital birth costs a five-figure sum just on the insurance excess, and if money is tight, wouldn’t you prefer to be told that popping your baby out “as nature intended” is the wiser, better choice?

Lift any stone and you’ll find weird, ugly things beneath it. There’s no stone like domestic entrapment. And there are few things uglier than women telling other women - usually in return for money - that it’s safest to choose danger.

Edited

Especially because being a good mother is the one thing lots of women really really want to be. I dont mean in a surrendered woman kind of way. I work and volunteer and have family and friends etc. But I stress far more about whether I am being a decent mother to my son than the other stuff and feel more guilt over it. It makes women very vulnerable to being guilted/manipulated over their decisions. Likewise birth and pregnancy. I am quite a grounded person but I worried a lot about having a "healthy" pregnancy and giving my baby the best start in life. Before having children i would have questioned how the women taken in by the free birthing scam could have been taken in, but after I can sort of see how it could happen.
It's using women's best instincts (to do what's best for their children) against them.

NigelFaragesFakeRoarofLaughter · 18/01/2026 22:24

Yes, exactly.

Carla786 · 19/01/2026 01:08

earlyr1ser · 18/01/2026 14:01

Class (in the UK) is such a powerful force. Did you catch the LP interview, I think it was with Chris Williamson, where she dismissed DV as mainly a problem for people from the lower classes?

I've noticed, meanwhile, that LP and MH have been very quiet about the Grok story. Not a surprise: AI-generated explicit content doesn't involve a woman making a questionable decision, so as a proxy-target for an attack on women having agency, it has no polemical value.

Revulsion at the idea of preventable stillbirth has dealt a serious blow to the freebirthers. But what could do equivalent damage to the likes of LP and MH, or to their transparently dodgy agenda? You could read Mein Kampf in a purring John Lewis voice and English middle classes would lap it up.

'Did you catch the LP interview, I think it was with Chris Williamson, where she dismissed DV as mainly a problem for people from the lower classes?'

  • did she? That's disgusting. More & more I think she mentally puts 'bad men' in a box as 'men who have hookups, watch porn, use prostituted women' etc as if there's no crossover between that & married men.

Similarly, marriage to her is apparently not a concern because her husband is a police officer (so coded as 'protector of women'). So DV is seen as something lower class men do. Of course, middle class police officers are hardly exempt from DV, and if anything it seems worse for the police.

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