Why women aren’t having babies

[SmudgeHughes]

I saw a young woman post this on social media recently and thought it was so well-expressed that I had to share.

‘The problem isn’t that men want more children but that too many men want them without restructuring their own lives to carry the burden of parenthood.

If men matched their desire with an equal willingness to parent like taking the night shifts, booking the appointments, shouldering the career sacrifices then women would be more open to the idea.

Until then, women are simply refusing to be the ones who pay the highest price for someone else’s dream.

That’s not selfishness but wisdom hard earned through centuries of women being told that family is everything only to find out that "everything" really meant everything is theirs to do.

Women are increasingly unwilling to subsidize men’s dreams with their own exhaustion. They are making rational decisions about their capacity and saying no not because they don’t love children but because they know love alone doesn’t neutralise burnout, stalled careers, unaffordable childcare or the silent erosion of identity that comes when one partner carries the bigger share of parenting.

So when men say they want more children women hear something different like, I want the idea of more children but I haven’t accounted for who will actually raise them.

It’s similar to someone who dreams of a puppy without calculating who will walk it or clean the accidents on the rug. Women have woken up to a truth previous generations often swallowed.’

There was more; just thought it was beautifully expressed.

And I think we are talking about it much more openly as well. It's a frequent topic of discussion amongst my female work colleagues and friends.

Women, collectively, have had enough.

I don’t think it’s just men, women aren’t as willing to take on the burden either. You need a certain level of maturity (and progressed enough in your career) to think “it’s time to focus on family”. Culture has alot of influence too- we are very anti kid in the UK and overall see them as burdens rather than the blessings they are.

i don’t think current women have woken to anything. Previous generations knew what it took. Now we live in shock of what is needed. The erosion of generational wisdom being passed down as “old fashioned “ has meant new generations of women think they’ve invented it all.

I'm glad women are beginning to realise their worth and that having kids isn't everything. If I had my time over,I wouldn't have kids,much as I love them. I would have a better career and travel more.

Both dds are in their mid 30s now and neither want children which is fine by me.( not that I have anything to do with it!)

There is more to women than breeding stock

The internet has done many bad things to our society but the best thing it has achieved is letting women know the reality of parenthood, men's reality of parenthood and what is expected and what is possible for both.
We know how many men walk away and create more babies with other women, when they don't pay maintenance for their first. We see it now.

We also know it isn't our fault. That is the game changer because for centuries women have been pitted against each other in a "fight for your man" stance rather than "you know what, if you want the lazy arse cluttering up your sofa, be my guest!".

Men haven't been paying attention to these revelations and it is really beginning to show.

I find it a bit odd to see having children being expressed as "someone else's dream" (i.e. the man's dream but NOT the woman's). Most women I know would appreciate more support but aren't being pressed against their will to have (more) kids.

I think part of the problem is that we've moved away from taking a village to rear a child - the burden didn't used to fall so heavily on parents because family and friends played a vital role. The modern model of managing it all within the nuclear family is barely sustainable with two hands-on parents, and if one of those parents opts out it puts the other (normally the mother) in a situation requiring sacrifice and superhuman endurance.

I think the reasons are complex and many and different for every person.

I will say there is a difference between not wanting children (as in - nope, don’t want them, nothing will change my mind, it isn’t a money/man thing), and people who will never really be ready for them (men and women alike) because society keeps people much younger for longer now.

Most of my childfree friends fall into the second category (we’re 35). Most are married or in LTRs, and say ‘when I have kids…’ without seemingly noticing they only have a handful of years left to do so. They don’t seem to proactively make it happen even at our age, it’s almost like they’re waiting for some kind of official sign that they’re now ‘ready’ (despite being home owners, in decent jobs etc).

Yes. I also think it's much easier in some ways to move into the parenting stage at the same time as (at least some of) your peers.

I found I had to create this whole new social circle on mat leave completely from scratch, really putting myself out, because all my old friends still wanted to go out for Friday night cocktails and I literally didn't know anyone else with a baby. And even then the friends were all fellow first-time mums from antenatal/baby classes rather than more experienced parents. I don't think I was unusual, I've heard that story a lot. In the past you would have had some school friends, sisters, cousins around etc with tips.

As true as that may be for some in my circles we simply don't relish the thought of children.

We go for dinner and roll our eyes at out of control children, feel terrible for the mums with exhausted faces and the dads who seem to be daydreaming of being anywhere else.

Those I know with children have all warned us off doing it. They love their children but feel they wouldn't do it in another life.

When you're surrounded by only negative stories it's hard to think "ooh yeah I fancy that" when we all have great careers and the time to enjoy ourselves.

Why does it have to be more complicated than "because they don't fancy it"?

Was interested by that "how to know when you're done" thread yesterday. Some women feel a visceral need for babies (tiny vests etc). Many don't. If you don't feel the visceral need what's the case for it?

I’ve seen it said online that men want children the same way children want puppies. They love them and enjoy them but they’re not the ones doing the care and drudge work, making the decisions, cooking and cleaning, making the pick ups and appointments happen, sorting out the clothes that don’t fit anymore, wiping noses and taking time off when they’re ill etc etc etc.

Having said that, I think women are more likely to want children than men. Not always and obviously this is just anecdotal but in my social circle it’s been the men who have agreed to children because it’s what their wives wanted. Maybe thats their get out clause in some cases.

You don’t need any level of ‘maturity’ to take on parenthood. People of both sexes sleepwalk into it, continue accidental pregnancies etc. More women are recognising that parenthood is optional, and it’s increasingly normal to think about it and decide it’s not for you.

I wasn’t bothered either way, and made it very clear to DH that if he wanted a child, he was going to have to be the one who reimagined his worklife for more flexibility. We only had a child on that basis. If he hasn’t been on board that, I wouldn’t have contemplated parenthood. We have one child by choice.

I believe the premise is incorrect if it is suggesting that men want children more than women. I do not believe that is the case. Men are typically quite aware that a child will lead to significant financial burden for an extended period of time, and view the associated responsibility and loss of freedom with trepidation.

However, if the premise is that the men that do want to have children don't fully understand the logistics of child rearing, the physiological hardship, near abandonment of career, the social exclusion, mental strain, loss of identity, etc., then I would wholeheartedly agree.

I think it is also the case that young women find these realities equally as daunting and unappealing. Quite right too.

Fully agree with this, but on the flip side as has been stated on here before many a time if you want a village you need to be willing to be a villager.

Which means you taking the time out to help support others, allowing other people to parent and even discipline your kids, accepting there’s more than one way of doing things. How many times have we seen threads where a MIL or other carer has allowed a child some screen time or not put the child to sleep at the exact time the mother would or just done things slightly differently - and I’ve been shocked to see people responding saying your baby, your rules, pay for childcare and don’t let them look after your child if they don’t do it your way.

My cultural background is of one where there is a strong “village” and you wouldn’t think twice if a neighbour gave your child a dressing down if they were up to no good in the streets - they would probably even proudly tell you they had and say “I’ve smacked them for doing x,y,z” - that same neighbour another day may see your child in need and come to its rescue or pick them up from nursery if you’re running late or take them to a park with their kids because they were all going. To me it works both ways, but unfortunately when people say village they often mean, support with their children without thinking what comes with that and I do think especially with my peers that people are less flexible than they need to be if they want a true village.

Also as everything is more expensive, people are delaying families until careers are sorted, they’re on the properly ladder etc at which point their own parents who may have been the “village” are older and sometimes need intensive support themselves. And then realising that when they do have kids - it’s often impossible to have any quality of life without both of you working, but then we’re at the same time being told it’s bad for your kids to be in childcare. You’re supposed to work like you have no kids, parent like you don’t have a job, be a good partner, friend, child , colleague, employee. I think it’s hard on men and women and people are thinking long and hard about if it’s worth it. It’s funny that this thread has come up as there was a thread a few days ago of a woman with 3 kids who was struggling with cost of living, working part time and whilst some people politely told her that a third child is a luxury , others wrote comments such as “you should close your legs then”. Feels like you Can’t do right for doing wrong and whenever things go tits you’ll be first in firing line to be blamed

It sounds like a small thing but it isn’t - parenting is harder as kids don’t play out now. They’re in the house with you 24/7, following you around and making demands. It is bloody exhausting. Standards of parenting is so much higher than it was

This is what caused me to have no children (actively, through choice).

Amazing if some women find a way to "have it all", but I've certainly never seen it.

My husband is a good man, does a decent share of chores (but not the mental load), and would make a great dad. But - structurally, institutionally - I'd shoulder more of the impact and the "burden" (for want of a better word).

I see women around me with kids either not working, or with a massively impacted career, and therefore lacking financial independence and autonomy over their own lives. Or I see them working (whether full or part time), and running themselves RAGGED. I've never wanted either for myself (but appreciate my friends' children have bought them a huge amount of joy and pride).

I'd just personally rather have an easier life where I can relax before and after work, and at weekends, and have copious amounts of time to eat really well, go to the gym, socialise, and rest, and have full financial independence and autonomy over my own life.

I'm 41 and have never budged.

All the mums I know complain about exactly the same things. Typically they have good jobs, equal to their partner - but their home lives aren’t equal at all.

Wherever it started off, all seem to have descended into the mum being the ‘primary carer’ and manager of family and home. Yes dad might cook a meal or empty the washing machine - but isn’t doing anything like the level of work the mother is.

This means they are all exhausted - and resentful. There is no down time, there is no support network, and they are expected to be giving 100% either at work of for their kids at all times. It’s just too much.

So many of my male friends who are nice, successful, otherwise thoughtful and productive people… and their wives all say exactly the same things.

Having it all actually seems to mean doing it all.

These threads come up a lot ( not a bad thing, just reflective of the fact that society is coming to terms with the implications of falling birth rates and an aging population). What is clear is that this is a global phenomena so it can’t be pinned on country specific things ( if it’s about childcare costs why does Sweden have a lower birth rate than the UK?). It seems like it’s a confluence of multiple factors including

cost of living and in particular housing ( probably has more impact on number of kids rather than not having kids at all)

people start later so don’t have time to have as many kids as they might have had and this also leads to generational spread so within a given timeframe, fewer generations are born.

parenting norms have changed so parents are expected to effectively martyr themselves on the altar of their child’s wellbeing forever. The phase of life between around 25-45 where you and your parents effectively become “peers” seems to have disappeared. If I hear the “brains aren’t fully developed until they’re 25 so you can’t expect your kid to do anything for themselves” mantra one more time I’ll scream- taken totally out of context.

more socially acceptable to just not have any kids and not get pressured into it.

more awareness/ acceptance of alternative lifestyles

fewer people who are actually fully functioning adults and can cope with the demands of modern society ( which is more complicated and overwhelming than it used to be)

women less prepared to put up with doing everything for everyone

and loads more, so it’s not just one thing. It’s lots of things all coming together in a perfect storm. There’s also likely to be an element of “the more people who don’t have kids the more other people won’t have kids”.

Yeah I agree that this is actually a major thing- the intensity with which we are now expected to parent has increased dramatically and isn’t compatible with large families

I think a lot o fpeople think it's all new that women are realising that their labour has been undervalued for forever.

But actually, I think there's been a real change in the last 30-50 years.

A few years after my great uncle died, I was chatting to my great aunt and she told me that when she was going through all the paperwork etc, she was horrified to discover how little money he had. They had both worked, but he had been the breadwinner and of course, she had taken on the bulk of the household tasks. And she said that he had paid all the major bills etc, and her money had always been for little extras or to get her hair done or whatever but he would still pay for things for her and buy her gifts etc.

And I know he was an active and involved dad.

So when he died, she had no idea that he'd actually had no money to spend on anything extra. He'd just been putting it ALL to her and to their family.

And while I don't think that's a good way to live, I thought it was so interesting that there was this deep seated responsibility and committment from him, that played out in the appropriate way for their time.

My parents were probably similar in many ways. And my dad was definitely 100% involved and did all the "hard" stuff - the physically heavy lifting whether that was the garden or taking us on long walks or teaching us to ride a bike or being the one in charge of monitoring our swimming etc etc etc. He did the late night fetching and carrying. He literally did all the things that required more physical or financial effort.

But today, so often, we see even men who are taking on the bulk of financial burdens, still prioritising their own needs - financial, emotional, physical. And when they aren't taking on the financail burden, they're still prioritising the other stuff.

I often wonder if popular culture is to blame here. These ideas of what was "normal" that, I suspect, wasn't actually anywhere NEAR as normal as we think. My memory of my friends' fathers is similar - proactive, present, engaged. I learnt my favourite quick, easy, cheap pasta dish that got me through uni from my best friend's dad. Another friend's dad spent hours talking to us about financial stuff.

On the plus side, as I look at my DC's friends, lots of the dads are equally present and involved. But there are enough who seem to think parenting and effort is optiona.

I'm not sure if I've expressed any of that well. It's just that I do 100% understand why women choose not to have children but I think the problem is almost a new one.

@Uggbootsforever

"parenting is harder as kids don’t play out now. They’re in the house with you 24/7, following you around and making demands. It is bloody exhausting. Standards of parenting is so much higher than it was"

Why is that though? Why don't kids play outside and in what way are "standards" higher? My son was born in the late 70's so I'm genuinely interested to know what has changed or caused that change.

Life is totally different to the 1970s.

Far more cars on the road - our population is 15 million more now than it was then.

Widespread news around child abduction and sex offender statistics makes parents nervous. Holly and Jessica, April Jones, Milly Dowler, Sarah Payne, a spate of such tragic cases of children abducted while playing or walking outside alone.

Neighbours are strangers now, most people don’t know everyone living on their road, it feels less safe.

Just a culture now that children that aren’t heavily monitored 24/7 are neglected. If I had had an accident playing out it would’ve been an accident, now the parent would be held responsible for not supervising.

Kids have screens so that’s the entertainment of choice.

A very basic example of standards being higher now is school lunchboxes. They are now heavily policed by schools, no unhealthy snacks etc. When I went to primary school in the 90s, they weren’t policed whatsoever. So more effort needed from the parents now.

Well, I'll agree they weren't policed. But they weren't healthier. We got a peanut butter sandwich. Every. Single. Day.

I do agree that the lack of a village and this sense of needing to be "on" 24/7 as parents makes parenting today harder, even while, ironically, i think it's less good for our DC!