Why women aren’t having babies

[SmudgeHughes]

I saw a young woman post this on social media recently and thought it was so well-expressed that I had to share.

‘The problem isn’t that men want more children but that too many men want them without restructuring their own lives to carry the burden of parenthood.

If men matched their desire with an equal willingness to parent like taking the night shifts, booking the appointments, shouldering the career sacrifices then women would be more open to the idea.

Until then, women are simply refusing to be the ones who pay the highest price for someone else’s dream.

That’s not selfishness but wisdom hard earned through centuries of women being told that family is everything only to find out that "everything" really meant everything is theirs to do.

Women are increasingly unwilling to subsidize men’s dreams with their own exhaustion. They are making rational decisions about their capacity and saying no not because they don’t love children but because they know love alone doesn’t neutralise burnout, stalled careers, unaffordable childcare or the silent erosion of identity that comes when one partner carries the bigger share of parenting.

So when men say they want more children women hear something different like, I want the idea of more children but I haven’t accounted for who will actually raise them.

It’s similar to someone who dreams of a puppy without calculating who will walk it or clean the accidents on the rug. Women have woken up to a truth previous generations often swallowed.’

There was more; just thought it was beautifully expressed.

Nothing ever seems to be enough now. When I was at school my lunchbox was a sandwich (marmite, honey or jam), an apple, a penguin bar. That was all. Now it’s all cut up fruit and veg, fancy wraps with multiple ingredients, additional snacks. Birthday parties were very simple, now there’s balloon arches, commissioned cakes, people who ‘create wonderlands’ in your back garden, themes and elaborate party bags. All costs so much money too.

Oh i was given those meat paste sandwiches! Some of the other kids actually had shandy.

Yeah i hate that i have to have my phone with me constantly in case nursery or school need to contact me via app. I asked my mum what she did in the 90s with just a landline and she needed to go out during the day, and she couldn’t remember.

Yes and you wouldn’t be allowed the Penguin bar now.

Many men today want their wives to pay 50% of the bills and so 90% of the parenting and housework because they’ve been fed the stories about gold diggers wanting to take advantage of men.

With that kind of dynamics, the actual gold digger is the one who pays half of the bills but thinks that the 10% of parenting he does is lots and makes him more modern than his dad who had a stay at home wife do all the parenting and housework.

Has anyone seen this article:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/noel-fitzpatrick-supervet-father-children-parent-b2831274.html

I’m not subscribed to the Time so didn’t read his initial interview but here it is for anyone that has access

https://www.thetimes.com/life-style/celebrity/article/noel-fitzpatrick-supervet-interview-children-b6b6cl56q

this baffles me too along with complete disregard that many of us long to be mothers and enjoy parenting

I think it’s women having to work, often now being the higher earner, less social pressure on men to provide for the family.
Women have always had to do the bulk of the housework. The mental load seems to increase with every automated (council tax payment line that doesn’t work and they can’t seem to set up a direct debit ) or money saving idea (switching energy providers). Every job only needs takes 5-10 minutes but there’s only so many you can do in a day. And now women are expected to be at least equal earners. Men’s role has not expanded to help. They do less in many cases not being the higher earner earner. In the past there was a lot of peer pressure on men to provide for their families, there were always the ones that didn’t but many more did. So women have to choose because you can only really do manage two out of three. I’ve got the children and work, currently still got the partner but if he left I wouldn’t be bothered

I think one aspect, though not the only one, is that active parenting now lasts so much longer. DH was born in the early 1970s, he left home at 17, got a job and rented a room. From that moment on, his mother never did another thing for him. Now, the world is so different. It's so expensive and difficult to move out, education lasts longer...I wonder if there was a guarantee that by 18, they'd move out and be entirely self sufficient, that would make people feel more inclined to have a child?

Hang on - what do the lunchbox police do?? If they can't confiscate phones surely they can't confiscate cheese strings??

Why do so many young women feel they need men to fully coparent to successfully raise a child? Why do so few believe they can mother solo? It’s a bleak lack of confidence.

Yes, I could threaten to wallop DCs - dont remember doing it but could also be quite strict and ‘hard’ on them compared to now.
Childrearing is much harder.
constant explaining, arguing, can’t raise your voice in public .
Exhausting.
edit -plus all the out of school hobbies, no weekend jobs, tutors?

The cost of childcare. Crime. Country going to shit.
Women's rights constantly threatened and compromised.

I was out once with my teenage ds...we were in a shop...he was spectacularly rude to me and I turned round and firmly said how dare you speak to me like that...well a couple who overheard me looked on in absolute horror like I was some abusive parent. Also when he was at secondary school I left him happily in the car in a supermarket carpark with his phone whilst I nipped in for one item. A member of the public actually came up to the window to check he was ok.

I mean FFS I spent most of the 1980s standing outside the betting shop with a packet of sweets waiting for my dad to come out and no one batted an eyelid.

I think men like the cosy idea of family but don’t want the work that comes with it. I think many still think there’s a status that comes with being a Dad and having a family. They see going out to work as their contribution, many are too self centred.

In their own self centred privileged world it never occurred to them that once women tasted the freedom of working etc those women would then see the reality of bringing up children in a world that continuously judges them, undermines parents and puts children rights above everything else.

I’m not convinced that it’s about the cost if childcare etc anymore, I just think women want what men have had for generations and that is to live their lives freely on their own terms.

It really doesn't take much effort. A sandwich, an apple, a banana (or other fruit) and water in a bottle - takes about 3 minutes. That is all they would get for lunch at home and it's more than enough.

I nearly had a breakdown when DC was 6-7mo old because I was so worried that I wasn't doing baby led weaning properly and that everyone was judging me because I was giving him spoonfuls of purée and was it okay because at least he was taking the purée spoons instead of being FORCE FED by his incompetent mother who wasn't baking homemade zucchini bites for him every morning? "It really doesn't take much effort!" sang the mums in my baby group!

I went to visit my family (who live overseas) where there were several cousins of varying preschool ages and really a "village" of people... who all just happily picked up the purée spoons and gave them to him without a second thought... and fed him bits of things from their plates... nothing unhealthy per se but not rigorously 100% salt free ("even the pasta water can't have salt in it!!") etc.

We are much off when surrounded by lots of people that we can learn from in person and see different approaches, rather than online influencers with "programmes" and rigid rules, and a bunch of other new mums following the exact same influencers.

I think there is something in this. It is not necessarily the case that all relationships are much more egalitarian nowadays. But people expect more from life and can be more selfish. Many women get a shock when they have kids, but readjust and focus on the kids but I don't think as many men do the same.

My mother was one of four children. My grandfather worked in a job where wives were expected to give up work when they got married (this later changed, and she started retraining as a history teacher when her youngest child was 8 and worked for many years after that). My grandfather was paid weekly and came home and handed his pay packet over to my grandmother. She'd give him a little bit back for his weekly outing to the local pub with his work colleagues, but that was it, that was the extent of his "fun money". The rest of the money was eked out to cover household expenses and the occasional family outing or treat. They put money aside for Christmas and birthday gifts for the children and chose them together. My grandfather loved choosing gifts for his children, and later his grandchildren. Occasionally, he'd bully my grandmother to spend money on something for herself, especially later on when they were better off because she was working. Weekends were spent doing jobs around the house, and he could cook as well if not better than my grandmother. Both of them took a lot of joy in family life, the simple things - baking, sitting around having a drink or a cup of tea, doing art with us kids. They were very involved parents and grandparents. They were determined that their children would do well at school and they both spent a lot of time doing homework and other things with them. My grandfather left school young, but expected all his kids even in their teens to talk him through their homework and what they were learning about and how they were doing. He spent a lot of time reading with them when they were little.

I'm always a bit sad on MN to read about parents (and it seems to be more men than women) who don't spend quality time with their kids, doom-scroll on their phones when left to look after them, don't enjoy taking them on outings, don't chose gifts for them, don't cook or bake or read with them. But instead you read about a lot of fathers who lie in until late on the weekend, have expensive hobbies that take them out of the house most weekends, spend thousands on this and that and all sort of kit for their hobbies, go on holiday alone with their mates without their family and just aren't very present and put themselves first.

I think part of it is because we expect a lot more from life nowadays, we have more resources and we're less willing to compromise. But it's upsetting that so many fathers don't seem to see their children and their family life as something they need to help to create, that is worthy of their time and investment. My grandparents created a family life jointly for their children, and it was something they took great joy in. It's very hard work (and lonely) if you're a mother who has to create this all on your own for your kids because their other parent is either absent or uninterested.

When I was at primary in the 90s standard was a ham or cheese sandwich, bag of crisps, a penguin and maybe a piece of fruit 😅

Interesting comment from PP about the internet showing the reality of motherhood. I saw a TikTok with a midwife going through some FAQs about labour and birth, talking about episiotomies, tearing and stitches, how it’s common to poo while pushing etc. It was aimed at pregnant women but the comment section was full of younger childless women tagging their partners and saying ‘yeah I am NEVER doing this.’

I would absolutely second this , I had DS relatively young ( mid 20's) the relationships I had with experienced mothers were utterly priceless.

This is happening all over the world, though, wherever women have education and access to contraception.

I think the lack of guaranteed long term support is a huge factor for women when considering entering into parenthood. So much responsibility and accountability is put on the woman, much more so than the man.

Makes sure you pick a good man they say…okay so you do your best to select a good partner/husband.

Make sure parenthood is planned and discuss and agree an equal and fair share of the domestic/child rearing responsibilities.

Make sure you are married, protect yourself financially, don’t ever give up work to be a stay at home parent even if you can afford to do so.

Never let yourself become financially dependent upon a man, even if that man is your husband and father to the children.

Always, always be prepared to become a single parent at any point!!

My point is you can do all of the above and for what?? The man can still become utterly useless once child has been born or at any point after, and if not useless still less than an equal parent. Worse still that man can become abusive, an alcoholic or just flat out leave and leave you holding the baby/kids at any point. There is very little in place to make a man take responsibility for their offspring, there is even less that is effective in making that man be financially responsible for their children, and in most cases it’s not enough and certainly does not cover 50 percent of the cost of raising the child/ren. Then god forbid the poor women then needs help from the state like universal credit or benefits you will have people piling on and questioning her on why she had kids if she couldn’t afford them!

My point being is that as a woman you can do everything right, and still end up carrying the load all alone, and regardless of whether you did everything right or wrong the blame, responsibility and judgment somehow still ends up at her feet!! How many times do you see it here, with statements such as “why did you have a child with him?” or “why do you only work part time, you should be working more hours”, I mean never mind the fact that the poor woman is carrying the majority or all of the domestic load and child rearing and probably just doesn’t have the time or energy for more hours! Or in news articles about a child/teen in some sort of trouble what’s the most seen comment?? It’s usually asking where was the mother, or something similar to the same effect. Always everything is laid at the feet of the woman/mother. Men just are not held to the same standard.

Add on top of all that the cost of living, the housing market, stagnant wages, lack of job security, housing security, indeed any type of financial security why would you bother???!! Go to work 40 hours a week for some company, typically be underpaid and undervalued, overpay for housing, pay through the nose for Utilities so you can at least be warm when you are home, pay extortionate prices for basic food, pay even more for healthy or fresh food. Have a child and pay huge childcare fees just so you can continue to do all the above, and then find yourself doing the majority of child raising, domestic labour and then have other people blame and judge your choices when you dare to complain or admit that your are struggling. Sounds less than appealing doesn’t it??! It’s no wonder so many women just don’t want the burden anymore and are making different choices.

Sorry I didn’t mean for that to be so long.

I agree that men have got worse relative to women, in laziness, in my lifetime. When I was a kid many mothers worked part time or not at all. The whole family expected a certain amount of leisure, which could be had on a Sunday because the mum had had a day off in the week to do house and admin stuff. Dads fixed bikes, did the garden, took you out to the beach, taught you how things worked and how to build or fix or plant things, while they were doing it themselves. Parents had people over, family and / or friends, and took an interest in all generations - other people’s kids as well as their own. I know some men like this still but it seems to be completely acceptable not to bother. Mums have to work full time and do everything else as well. It isn’t set in stone that dads just won’t show up to family life. I don’t know why men are like this now. True partnership seems incredibly rare. When I see it, I note it - it feels remarkable.

Actually the 70's and 80's had higher numbers of child abductions. In fact 1971 saw the highest ever in the UK at 33 abductions that year alone. This lead to the "stranger danger" campaign by the Government. I didn't realise that parents were held responsible these days for unsupervised accidents. Although obviously you'd be in deep trouble if a very young child fell in a river or whatever even in the 1970's.

Shandy?!😀

@Iocanepowder

"A very basic example of standards being higher now is school lunchboxes. They are now heavily policed by schools, no unhealthy snacks etc. When I went to primary school in the 90s, they weren’t policed whatsoever. So more effort needed from the parents now."

I can't imagine it takes any more effort to prepare a healthy lunch box than an unhealthy one. Surely a sandwich, some fruit and a yoghurt? That's pretty much all I had going to school in the 1960's when a huge array of snacks wasn't available to buy.