Transwoman on women's ward

[Sallycinnamum]

Had a minor gynae procedure today but nevertheless was very anxious leading up to it.

Was wheeled back to the day ward to be greeted quite literally (started waving at me) by a transwoman in the bed opposite me.

There was no doubt he was a man and being completely immobile due to a spinal anaesthetic with no underwear on I asked the nurse to completely close the curtains so he couldn't look directly at me.

Spoke to a nurse who confirmed it wasn't a mixed ward.

I am so upset. I felt so vulnerable especially as I couldn't walk so had to pee into a bedpan in clear earshot of him.

I've emailed PALS but I feel so bloody fed up of it all. Had a man next to me in the M&S lingerie changing rooms a few weeks ago and was made to feel like a total bigot when I complained to the staff.

But would you say the same thing about gay people, because that's also very much about how you feel? We don't have much definitive science on it. Both have an element of subverting gender norms.

Note the words 'outward expression' in my post. Clothes. Hair. Makeup. Gestures. Ways of speaking. These are outward expressions.

In current culture, the 'typical' gender expression is that long hair, makeup, high heels and skirts are for women. But long hair, makeup and a skirt is standard for men in Masai culture. Or the court of Louis XIV - where they also wore high heels. Roman men wore a dress and makeup. In Ancient Greece (pre-5thC BCE) long hair was a marker of a free man or woman, and short hair was a sign of slavery. In Sparta long hair was for men and short for boys.

This is cultural. It varies across time and place. It is not innate.

And in all cultures, there are subculture. For example men who are goths, emo, punk are more likely to wear makeup than men in the general population.

And because being gay or lesbian has often been either illegal or at least disapproved of or outside 'mainstream' society, people whonare same sex attracted have tended to form subcultures. Which - like goths, or Californian valley girls - have their own cultural markers in the way they dress, gestires they use, patterns of speech and slang etc. For example a lesbian in the mid to late 20th century UK was probably more likely to wear a suit and tie than the average woman. But so did Judies (the female equivalent of Teddy boys). Both wore certain clothes because of pride in their culture, a way to identify themselves to each other, and because that's what their friends and cultural influences did.

But putting on a tie doesn't make a woman a lesbian. Nor does being a lesbian make a woman put on a tie.

Same-sex attraction is innate. It's nothing to do with what hand gestures you use, or what you wear, or whether you like ABBA. It's not about subverting cultural gender norms - although some gay or lesbian subcultures may tend to do that (although in doing so, that become a gender norm of its own) - it's is purely about who you are sexually attracted to. That remians true across all cultures.

And it's measurable - in a way that transness is not. You can objectively test physical sexual responses. You can't test a feeling of being the opposite sex.

That's a really useful post marshmallow, thank you.

Yes, and I don't think that heterosexual females are attracted to men in the same way that homosexual males are attracted to men. I used to assume that was the case, but in reality I think the attractions are different.

I'm a heterosexual woman, and in the past a large majority of the men I fancied turned out to be gay, or I already knew they were gay. I used to regret that I could never be with one of these gay men.

In retrospect I think I was "fetishising" these gay men, and I see this repeated in some of the young female to male transitioners - they want a relationship with a gay man as they imagine them to be, not as they actually are.

That's a thought-provoking response. Thank you. I will go and think on it. I know there are certain gay men — good-looking, woman-positive gay men — who get a lot of unwanted attention and even sexual pressure from women.

I don't think that heterosexual females are attracted to men in the same way that homosexual males are attracted to men.

That's an excellent point. Both groups are attracted to men - but that doesn't necessarily mean the same men, or that the attraction is based on the same characteristics, or that it is felt or manifests in the same way.

I'm not sure if there's any research on this (probably is), but even a superficial look at the 2 groups shows up differences. For example women tend to have personal preferences about looks - they'll say they like a hairy chest, a capable forearm, or whatever. But in my experience they usually mention individual features; they don't generally seem to categorise whole physical groups in the way many gay men do. You don't hear women talking about twinks, bears, otters, muscle marys etc. (or equivalent with different names).

Anyone who's read any fanfic is very familiar with the fetishisation of gay men by (usually) young straight women. Often very sexually explicit despite them (obviously) having no experience of gay male sex.

Yes definitely — often very much in the mode of them being like K-pop or anime characters: soft and romantic boys who act to all intents and purposes like teenage girls.

It’s a bit like the eroticisation of boy bands used to be. Young women “identifying” as boys in those kinds of fanfic spaces are usually imagining a romantic teen ideal of gay male sexuality that doesn’t bear much resemblance at all to actual gay male sexuality.

Jan Morris definitely sounds unusual. He clearly had an interest in women’s underwear - judging by his conversation in the ladies toilets asking a young Yasmin Alibhai-Brown about her undies (she is still too innocent to see the sexual element unfortunately) but was also a transsexual?

He was also absolutely horrible, cruel and neglectful, to his children. His daughter recently wrote a very sad book about it.

Review of his daughter’s book:

https://archive.ph/cMXdo

There was a very telling incident when a male journalist went to Morri's home to interview him, had dinner there, and then began to help with clearing the table. Jan told him to sit down and leave it, because "that's women's work".

Women's work that Jan was not participating in. It was for wife-and-daughter type women; not Jan Morris type women.

My dad was in the merchant navy in the 50s. The stewards were all transvestites. They would dress up and go into town when the ship docked. This was completely accepted by everyone on board, apparently. My dad was from a small town in the north of Scotland and hadn't seen anything like it, but he was always very pro these men, who joined up specifically to get away from home and be able to dress up in a supportive, safish environment.

Ditto! my 1920s father mentioned transvestite crew members going ashore for a night out - "they walked right past the dockers - they stood up for themselves". Totally accepting (indeed admiring of their courage). Older generations knew a great deal about homosexuality, about transvestism, about unwanted babies etc: much more "live and let live"/"as long as it doesn't frighten the horses" than many Millennials and Gen Zers sadly.

"I agree that stereotypes can be unhelpful but it's hard to refute that a much higher number of lesbians than straight women present as butch and a much higher number of gay men present as 'camp'.
And it seems common for one to be 'the woman' and one to be 'the man'."

Really? Speaking as a woman, very happily married to another woman if you met either of us and were not aware of our relationship status you would have no idea we were gay. We dress, speak and act no differently from any other women of our age, background and sex. This is not because we are ashamed or hiding our sexuality (we aren't and we don't) but because it isn't the most significant thing about us, just one of many aspects of our lives. Its impact on who I am being up there with being a woman, British, Northern, working class, a mother, daughter, sister, wife, my job, Manchester United supporter, cat lover, reader, chocoholic ...etc.

Neither of us are particularly feminine or butch and neither of us are "the man". One of the things I love most about our relationship is that there are no stereotypes at all. It is so gloriously freeing. We have each just organically taken up the parts of our relationship that individually suit us best without any discussion and it works out a pretty even balance of traditionally male and female roles.

It is possible that people think a really high proportion of gaymen and lesbians behave in a certain way because the people who do are most easily identifiable as gay and lesbian. Those of us (probably the majority) who do not present stereotypically are just assumed to be straight.

Couldn't agree more. I'm also in a long-term lesbian relationship and given the number of people who seem a bit surprised when I come out to them, I'm guessing we don't present as 'typical' (in peoples' cliched minds) lesbians.

I went to a big meeting yesterday that because of its timing and subject attracted a lot of 60+ women and I suddenly realised that almost all of us had short hair — not because we were all lesbians, but because hair changes with the menopause, gets thinner and drier and sparser, and we all had similar short haircuts for that reason. Because most of us were feminist-inclined, there was very little make-up being used. I imagine some posters here would have taken one look at us and decided we were all butch lesbians.

Lesbians have nothing to do with predatory men in specifically women’s wards in hospitals…except that we do not want them, nor do other women.

Nobody said they did.

So I have an update of sorts.

The ward sister called me just as I was on my way out to collect DD from school so unfortunately was a very rushed conversation.

In a nutshell the ward sister said they had put him in my ward as according to her he had fully transitioned.

I said that was not what he had said to the nurse and she got all flustered and refused to discuss it any further.

I emphasised I'd felt really uncomfortable with him directly facing me and the curtains had been drawn so I couldn't get the attention of anyone when I desperately needed to go to the toilet.

She didn't acknowledge this at all and just kept repeating the mantra of him fully transitioning so he was entitled to be placed on a women's ward.

As soon as I mentioned the Supreme Court Ruling she basically ended the call so there we are.

Not all all happy and I will be following this up with a further email to the hospital.

@Sallycinnamum good luck with it all. Well done!

@Sallycinnamum so 1 man's requirements trump all other women's requirements? Excellent. 🙄

I wouldn't be letting this one go. It's the thin end of the wedge...

Well done for keeping on this

Her response was awful. Well done for challenging, maybe you could make an official complaint? She is obviously not clear on any of this.

A mad feature of trans ideology seems to be like a signal change in a train track - once you have switched your brain to prioritise men with feelz, you can’t ever recognise that women need consideration as well.

If she ended the call as soon as you mentioned the Supreme Court judgment she clearly knows this is completely illegal and you should now go for the jugular. Don't let this go, take it all the way to the top about how your legal sex based rights were knowingly and intentionally breached by the hospital staff.

This response is totally inadequate. In your shoes I would be making it a formal and taking it to the top. If you do that you know we will all be here to support you