Transwoman on women's ward

[Sallycinnamum]

Had a minor gynae procedure today but nevertheless was very anxious leading up to it.

Was wheeled back to the day ward to be greeted quite literally (started waving at me) by a transwoman in the bed opposite me.

There was no doubt he was a man and being completely immobile due to a spinal anaesthetic with no underwear on I asked the nurse to completely close the curtains so he couldn't look directly at me.

Spoke to a nurse who confirmed it wasn't a mixed ward.

I am so upset. I felt so vulnerable especially as I couldn't walk so had to pee into a bedpan in clear earshot of him.

I've emailed PALS but I feel so bloody fed up of it all. Had a man next to me in the M&S lingerie changing rooms a few weeks ago and was made to feel like a total bigot when I complained to the staff.

I would just ignore and focus on getting better

And I'm pretty surprised that anyone thinks it's only (or even largely) masculine-coded women and feminine-coded men who are attracted to their own sex!

"X people are like this, whereas Y people are like that" is rarely accurate or helpful.

Why should women ignore this? The NHS is deliberately and knowingly breaching our legal rights to affirm the identities of men who want to be women.

🤦🏽‍♀️ how incredibly minimising….

I'd find it less confounding if homosexual individuals acted exactly the same as other members of their sex aside from their choice of sexual partners but they don't.

Some don't. Many do. There are 'camp' straight men and 'butch'; straight women; there are 'macho' gay men and 'femme' lesbians. You notice the ones who conform.to your expectations, in classic confirmation bias.

The development of the stereotypical 'gay mannerisms' - slang, habits of speech, dress and movement - is a matter of group identity, quite probably reinforced by the need to identify other group members when homosexuality was illegal or frowned upon. It's not an innate part of same sex attraction. The markers differ across cultures, and there have been studies showing the decline of many of these things as social acceptance increases.

You find similar in other groups, to reinforce group identity.

a cognitive makeup which is somewhat closer to women than the typical man's brain is

Even the (flawed) study that claims the strongest result for this shows that on a scale of 0 to 100 - where 0 is 'woman' and 100 is 'man', TW sit at 75.

And perhaps you find it confounding because you're starting from the standpoint of 'This is true, so why don't the pieces fit?' rather than 'Is this true?'.

I should've said 'typical woman'. Women that are same sex attracted seem much more likely to display characteristically male attributes and vice versa with gay men.

I agree that stereotypes can be unhelpful but it's hard to refute that a much higher number of lesbians than straight women present as butch and a much higher number of gay men present as 'camp'.

And it seems common for one to be 'the woman' and one to be 'the man'.

What you are saying was indeed the view of “sexologists” at the beginning of the twentieth century up until around the 1940s/1950s. However, this was heavily criticised by gay people themselves, not least because there are many same-sex oriented and bisexual people who don’t present as or see themselves as butch or camp or like the opposite sex. In the 1960s and 1970s onward a large body of thought, social science and psychology about homosexuality was considered to have largely disproved the “sex inversion” theories of the early twentieth century.

There is plenty of reading on this out there if you want to learn more about this history. Sexuality: A Very Short Introduction by Veronique Mottier is a good place to start.

Ever heard of “lipstick lesbians”?

I have. What do you think 'lipstick lesbian' means?

I remember, probably the 80s, lots of lesbians stopped conforming to the butch look and were very “female”, lovely hair, good make up, nice clothes etc and that’s what they were nicknamed.

Sure, I'm surprised to learn that - what are the numbers, out of interest?

I mean, with all due respect, this is bollocks.

I agree that stereotypes can be unhelpful but it's hard to refute that a much higher number of lesbians than straight women present as butch and a much higher number of gay men present as 'camp'.
And it seems common for one to be 'the woman' and one to be 'the man'

You have a really simplistic and binary view of gender presentation. My experience is that gay men and lesbians have a range of styles, presentations and personalities . Just, you know, like straight women and men.

I know it’s probably a mind blowing thought, but the types of humans you are sexually attracted to isn’t linked to your hairstyle or the cut of your jeans.

This weird need to package the wonderfully diversity of human personality into two distinct boxes called “ masculine or feminine”, “ butch or camp” is one of the reasons we are in this mess now.

MagicMichaeICaine · Today 09:26
I agree that stereotypes can be unhelpful but it's hard to refute that a much higher number of lesbians than straight women present as butch and a much higher number of gay men present as 'camp'.
And it seems common for one to be 'the woman' and one to be 'the man'.

The1950s want their stereotypes back.

I'm a lesbian and you have no idea. Most lesbians, particularly those over 40, are your fairly standard, often short-haired women that you see everywhere. My lesbian book group has met in the same pub for the last three years and the staff there have no idea we're dykes. Long hair, short hair, make-up, no make-up. Last time we met, a couple of straight women heard us discussing the book and came over and asked to join the book group and when we said 'Are you lesbians' were stunned. 'We would never have guessed!' Then they asked if they could be honorary lesbians.

And if you think the majority of gay men are camp you've been going to the wrong leather and bear bars.

It’s a bizarre claim to make. Some of the manliest looking men are gay and vice versa with lesbians. People who support trans ideology seem to be very keen on stereotypes.

Lipstick lesbians was a phrase that came in in the 1990s (I was on the lesbian scene in London at the time) and was used to describe lesbians who adopted a fashion/ porn-style-gay-for-pay look that included make-up. Internet porn was coming in and straight porn performers were pretending to be lesbian and were performing lesbian sex for the male gaze — lipstick and long nails.

There had always been lesbians who wore make-up and dressed conventionally. Look for photos of the Gateways Club.
www.reportdigital.co.uk/archive-photos/1950s/the-gateways-club-1953.html

The big thing about lipstick lesbians is that many of them were/ are completely divorced from feminism, or were third-wavers (feminism lite). Lots of second wave feminists were lesbians who wanted to rebel against standard expectations of women by not wearing make-up or bras. Lipstick lesbians 'reclaimed' the right to follow convention by dressing and looking like straight women and in doing so took much of the politics out of being lesbian. And it was the third-wave feminists, with their 'let's be kind, let's include men in feminism, let's replace Women's Studies with Gender Studies' that helped promote Gender Ideology. It's why it's older lesbians who have held the line against Gender Ideology while younger lesbians have supported trans-identified men.

However, this was heavily criticised by gay people themselves, not least because there are many same-sex oriented and bisexual people who don’t present as or see themselves as butch or camp or like the opposite sex.

But when a group go to pains to emphasise that "we're not all like that" it's often because the perception is that many are.

That's why we hear so many people saying "not all men are like that" when we talk about male violence. Nobody is saying that all men are like that. Just that a higher percentage of men than women are violent.

People seem to be trying to bend my statement into saying that all lesbians are butch. Of course they're not but a much higher number are than heterosexual women IME. I say this having met a lot of lesbians. I used to sublet a room to a young lesbian who I'm still friends with so met a lot of people from that demographic.

I think the inevitable issue may be that it's hard for strongly GC people to have an impartial view, because to admit that transgenderism may have roots in cognitive science takes away from the commonly espoused ideas that they're either sexual deviants, mentally ill, or just confused/subject to societal influence. Which are arguably all stereotypes themselves.

I say this as somebody that supports the SC ruling and thinks self ID is a terrible idea.

I believe it's possible to believe that humans can't change sex and that people should use the toilets corresponding to their birth sex while still being open to the idea that there may sometimes be a cognitive reason influencing it all.

But just to clarify, we're saying then that there is no outward difference in presentation/identity between heterosexual/homosexual individuals? That you could take 50 straight men and women and you'd not be able to make any educated guesses when differentiating them from a group of 50 homosexual men or women?

You'd look at the 50 straight women and there'd be no clues that they were any different from the 50 lesbians outside of the usual differences in individual taste and dress style?

Presumably 50% of drag queens are straight males, right?

The development of the stereotypical 'gay mannerisms' - slang, habits of speech, dress and movement - is a matter of group identity, quite probably reinforced by the need to identify other group members when homosexuality was illegal or frowned upon. It's not an innate part of same sex attraction. The markers differ across cultures, and there have been studies showing the decline of many of these things as social acceptance increases.

I somehow missed this comment. It's a very plausible suggestion tbf.

Maybe I'm adding 2+2 and making 5, but I just feel everything normally comes down to brain chemistry in the end in one way or another. Although factors like having experienced abuse seem to also be comorbid in many cases. The lesbian I lived with was a chef and she'd been coerced into losing her virginity pretty young by the son of a restaurant owner. Guy was almost 40 and had plied her with booze and coke.

I just feel everything normally comes down to brain chemistry in the end in one way or another.

You are discounting culture and other environmental factors. When it comes down to things like outward expression of gender and identity, culture is all.

@NoBinturongsHereMate agreed. Social pressure, fitting in or trying to rebel

Because he's a man?

And she's just back from theatre