Transwoman on women's ward

[Sallycinnamum]

Had a minor gynae procedure today but nevertheless was very anxious leading up to it.

Was wheeled back to the day ward to be greeted quite literally (started waving at me) by a transwoman in the bed opposite me.

There was no doubt he was a man and being completely immobile due to a spinal anaesthetic with no underwear on I asked the nurse to completely close the curtains so he couldn't look directly at me.

Spoke to a nurse who confirmed it wasn't a mixed ward.

I am so upset. I felt so vulnerable especially as I couldn't walk so had to pee into a bedpan in clear earshot of him.

I've emailed PALS but I feel so bloody fed up of it all. Had a man next to me in the M&S lingerie changing rooms a few weeks ago and was made to feel like a total bigot when I complained to the staff.

From the office of national statistics report in March 2020 into all types of child abuse, one of the main summary points about the victims was

Prevalence was higher for females than males for each type of abuse, with the exception of physical abuse where there was no difference

I wonder what would happen if as a patient you refused to be treated by a trans woman. I certainly wouldn’t wanted to be treated by one for a gynae type procedure. It’s all so disturbing and disrespectful. It’s the deceit behind it all that I don’t like.

Wrong again it seems -

'Women were more likely than men to have experienced abuse before the age of 16 years
Around one in four women (25%; 5.1 million women) and around one in six men (16%; 3.3 million men) aged 18 to 74 years experienced abuse before the age of 16 years (Table 1). Prevalence was higher for females than males for each type of abuse, with the exception of physical abuse where there was no difference.'

Possibly be refused treatment. It has happened before to some women.

That's awful @Sallycinnamum I hope he is moved. And waving at you??? Awful, whoever, when you're coming round from an operation, but so much worse when it's done in "all girls together" cheeriness.

The hospital is breaking the law, basically.

I agree and think this is what would happen. It’s like women have to put up with anything thrown at them with no recourse.

Here's one woman who was refused treatment. (Private hospital not NHS)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12398959/Retired-solicitor-left-deaths-door-surgery-cancelled-dared-object-trans-woman-nurse-hospital-room-tells-shocking-story-vowing-cancel-Im-not-scared-speak-out.html

I live with males I don't mind sharing sleeping and washing spaces with. Doesn't mean I think women in hospital shouldn't have single sex spaces and care.

Indeed @BinBadger , as do most women; most of us love and like the men & boys in our lives. But I'd bet that if one of the men/boys you live with overstepped a line which compromised your dignity, safety or privacy, you'd have something to say to them!

We have to push back when people try to spout this rubbish about "You don't have a single-sex toilet at home, do you?"

I could tell these three were men by their walk, height, voice, Adam's apple, face. And mostly one can tell the sex of people you meet - 99.999% of the time i.e. not being able to tell the sex is so rare, once up close, as to be vanishingly impossible - indeed from gait and body shape you can tell sex from some distance. Don't bother about 'intersex' either, it's DSDs and they are sex specific.
Don't you have any good arguments?

How about I just don’t want a man who isn’t a member of hospital staff in close proximity to me looking or listening in when I’m sleeping, undressed, shuffling to the loo, being cathetered, having a bed wash, asking the staff for potentially embarrassing help, etc.? It’s hospital policy in most wards to have all the curtains pulled back for visibility the majority of the time, so you’re visible to every other patient in the bay/ward. In hospital, the heat and placement of drips means women may often be partially undressed all the time - if they have a central line in permanently which means it’s difficult to put clothes on on your upper body. Some conditions require that you have to see or poo into containers in the loo and leave them there for staff to collect to measure fluid or chemical intake/output, so the patient loo is full of little cardboard containers of other people’s wee. Hospital is full of indignities that are made worse by mixed sex wards.

I can tell you haven’t spent much or any time in hospital, if you think vulnerabilty there is just about “predatory” men. It’s about the whole situation of lack of privacy, control, comfort and dignity. And whereas patients always have to accept they lack those things in hospital, adding the extra embarrassment and indignity of someone of the opposite sex being there all the time, and it’s so much worse. I’ve seen elderly grandparents with terrible health issues and dementia on mixed sex wards in the 90s and it was utterly awful and degrading - it was right that we should be getting rid of them.

Since I don’t believe in the changing sex gendered soul magic words, a man on a ward is a man on the ward whether he thinks or pretends he’s a woman, or whether he doesn’t. (And yes some staff are men, but they are trained professionals with strict boundaries and protocols and routes for professional accountability, not Joe Bloggs off the street.)

Outside Mumsnet? You must have a limited circle of fit and healthy sisters and friends if none of them talk about this. If you know older women, nurses, people in poor health who spend a lot of time in hospital — well, I can tell you there is really extreme anxiety about this amongst the women who recognise that it isn’t just a super-progressive nice theoretical debate, but it might be them next week when they have to go in for chemo, or COPD, or a hip replacement; and it’s them, or their mum or auntie with dementia, on a gynae ward or a surgical ward or a neuro ward.

If you think this “isn’t a thing” outside MN, then you are in a hugely privileged position in life and the women you talk to are not remotely representative of women more broadly.

This. I wouldn't mind a trans woman being open and honest about how they identify . I would have respect for that person because I would know that they understood enough my anxieties about it to be honest and respectful . It's the fact that they can call themselves what they want that gets me. It shows a lack of sensitivity to trauma survivors.

One woman cannot give consent to others. I object to men in sex segregated spaces designed to keep me safe. That you do not does not mean we can all not bother about it. Non-consent trumps consent here.
Personally, I don't like 'woman face' but I have no problem with trans men or women (i.e. FtM and TiMs).
Most people in hospital wards do not wave at strangers. It's weird, like a performance. That's why it is unsettling.
If none of your friends and family are talking about this why are you on MN talking about it?

Oh come off it, the days are finished when everyone believed in the sacrosanct religion of gender identity that magically transforms men into women.

We’re allowed to speak the truth which is that men remain men even if they put dresses on, even if they take hormones or get surgery, and even if they really really fervently wish they were women — it’s still all pretendy fantasies. We know it; you know it; everyone knows it deep down, especially the individuals concerned.

My dad wouldn't have wanted a woman in his ward either. He wouldn't have been scared she would assault him but dignity mattered a lot to him. And this is the point - it's not just about not being raped.

This is excellent, and ably demonstrates how some people are so utterly devoid of empathy for others in situations that they haven’t themselves experienced. It’s very much the ‘if it hasn’t happened to me then it hasn’t happened’ juvenile school of thought.

From Upton's testimony, we know he would attend even if a woman had specifically asked for female care, because he considers himself female. She would then have to object to his presence in person. He considers it an act of aggression if someone points out his sex.

From general NHS policies we know that aggressive patients have a permanent flag placed on their notes. And agression is one of the few reasons the NHS is allowed to refuse treatment - not just on that occasion but, if they wish, also in future.

Another person saying that if no one you know is talking about this, you are very privileged.

Many of my friends and family members are carers for an elderly or disabled relative and they are all worried about their relative being forced to have intimate personal care from a carer of the opposite sex ( in cases where their relative doesn't want this ).

Every single teacher and NHS worker I know is worried about how to deal with aggressive and demanding TRAs, who want access to vulnerable women and girls in what should be safe spaces.

I work for a charity that works with women who have experience of the criminal justice system and all of them are worried about being assaulted by men in women’s prisons. Our charity has so far managed to protect out single sex services, which is what our service users want ( we have mixed sex as well, which are attended by our trans identifying clients). But all the staff are worried that our organisation will get targeted by TRAs, as our clients are so vulnerable.

My children's friends who are lesbian and bi are angry that their social events have been taken over or even closed down by “ transbians “. They are even more angry that some of their friends are being bullied by men to have sex with them, to prove that they are not bigots. It’s the new corrective rape.

It makes me very angry to read the patronising comments here about “ well I work in IT in Brighton and I have a lovely transwomen colleague and I’d happily put on my lippie beside her in the loo”. And “ if only you had met a trans person, you would feel the same as me “.

It’s the virtue signalling of the chattering classes with their luxury opinions and their quiet confidence that mummy and daddy will pay to make sure they are never adversely affected by the consequences of their own actions. Because their money and privilege buys them choices while they campaign to have them taken away from others .

It’s an absolute travesty.

Oh give it up.

He is a man. The law now finally permits women to have women only spaces, the law is being broken, and this hospital need sueing. OP call Sex Matters and JKR and go for it, this should be good for half a million or so.

Men are perfectly free to dress and enact whatever they want and you are free to indulge and play along all you like, go and get your kit off with anyone you want, in a third space.

Leave women who want men free spaces alone. Your issues with other people's consent and bodies is a you problem and not an us problem. And hospitals have no business enabling men's inner lives and gratification by providing them with captive women props. It's revolting and it's indefensible.

Can a woman now refuse treatment and/or care from a transwoman in any setting including hospitals. Does the SC clarification make this ok, and hospitals/care homes now must comply?

I shouldn't be, but I would be so shocked if this is allowed to continue. Please tell me it can't.

If a hospital sends a man identifying as a woman to do a job that they would not allow a man who does not identify as a woman to do, particularly if the woman has requested a SSHCP, then yes, they're legally fried.

They're cowards, relying on women not making as big a stink as these men can.

Frankly, it's about at the point of activists, hold our beer.

I'm reporting this post too.

Presumably you'll be reporting all posts discussing statistics around male perpetrators too?

Here's some statistics. It's a well known fact that mothers are the main perpetrators of non-sexual child abuse. Trying to shut down discussion of this isn't helpful in getting them and their children the support they need.

Unfortunately, it's hard to find recent data on this topic as people like yourself try and shut it down, but from the numerous government studies we have the facts are pretty clear. In 5-6 consecutive years the studies showed 'mother only' to be primary perpetrator, and it was still the same in studies conducted in 2022.

Link for first graph: https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

Link for below excerpt and tables in second image: https://www.breakingthescience.org/SimplifiedDataFromDHHS.php

TV shows and movies likewise hardly ever tell stories of abusive mothers or mothers who kill their children, leaving the viewing public with the misimpression that fathers are a far greater danger to their children than mothers. TV shows and movies are also far more likely to portray girls as victims of maltreatment than boys.

However data from the U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services (DHHS) tells a completely opposite story regarding who abuses children. The DHHS publishes an annual report called "Child Maltreatment", and each year's report contains a table detailing the parental status of the perpetrator(s).

Shown below is an analysis of data drawn from the "Child abuse and neglect" and the "Child fatality" tables from each of the DHHS' "Child Maltreatment" reports between 2001 and 2006.

The DHHS calculates the percentages of perpetrators in various categories such as Mother, Father, Foster Parent, Daycare Staff, Friend or Neighbor, etc. The percentages are often used to argue whether, on average, it is fathers or mothers that pose a greater risk of harm to their children. But when trying to determine which parent, on average poses the greater danger, categories like Foster Parent, Daycare Staff, Friend or Neighbor, etc. are entirely irrelevant. The calculations below factor out those categories to produce a more accurate picture. The resulting calculations show the percentage of child abuse and deaths caused by one parent acting either alone or in concert with someone other than the child's other parent.

The DHHS data shows that of children abused by one parent between 2001 and 2006, 70.6% were abused by their mothers, whereas only 29.4% were abused by their fathers.

And of children who died at the hands of one parent between 2001 and 2006, 70.8% were killed by their mothers, whereas only 29.2% were killed by their fathers.

Furthermore, contrary to media portrayals that leave the viewer with the impression that only girls are ever harmed, boys constituted fully 60% of child fatalities. (Table 4-3, p. 71, Child Maltreatment 2006).

How is your post remotely relevant to a discussion about women’s safety and privacy from men?

I can’t say that those stats are remotely surprising: chances are in a majority of cases the mother is the only parental presence in the child’s life. But I’m not sure that has anything to do with men being in female single-sex spaces.

Are you in America? We’re not, and neither is the OP. How is your post about US statistics on child abuse remotely relevant to the issue of men on women’s hospital wards in the NHS?