Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:23

Single sex spaces are not about “validation” to women in the same way they are for men. That’s a truly bizarre thing to say.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 10:23

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:15

I don't see how they've been 'stomping in' and 'demanding' things - they've always said it's their own understanding as a transwoman, and they haven't tried to tell ciswomen how to feel.

I am an ally to women and girls as I am a ciswoman. But I can also be an ally to transwomen and see that by transwomen living their lives, they aren't taking any of my rights away.

If by ‘transwomen living their lives’ you include mean using single sex spaces meant for women, winning awards meant for women, being included in all women shortlists, taking part in women’s sports, being placed in women’s prisons, being placed on women’s hospital wards, participating in groups around women’s health issues etc, then I don’t understand how your rights haven’t been taken away.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:23

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:03

I mean, I think that a male person who identifies as a woman is always going to get a tougher reception on here than a female person who identifies as a man, especially if they admit to using women's spaces. Because a male person who uses women's spaces is admitting to not respecting our boundaries from the outset, whereas a female person who identifies as a man may not be in women's spaces, but would be welcome to use them all the same.

But I do think it is more than that. There's something in the way these respective posters come across that shows that even when you only consider gender rather than sex, being socialised as male or female as a young child seems to have an indelible effect. There have been at least two long threads by trans men on here and each time I read them as unmistakeably female.

In fairness that trans man handled the conversation and the responses really well.

The very first response was asking him why he’d “destroyed” his body. Good faith, right.

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:23

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:16

There is no such thing as a “ciswoman”.

According to biology, which is so important to you, there is. 'Cis' is just a descriptor, not a form of discrimination or oppression.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:24

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:23

According to biology, which is so important to you, there is. 'Cis' is just a descriptor, not a form of discrimination or oppression.

Really? What is it describing?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:24

Single sex spaces are simply something many women feel they need for their own privacy, dignity and safety. What men think about them has fuck all to do with anything.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:25

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:21

Okay, and SSS are all about women’s validation. It cuts both ways.

I’ve got no issue with women seeking validation in whatever way they need or see fit, but I don’t see understand how we can then be shocked when other people ask for it.

I personally don’t need the validation of this group, if I did I wouldn’t be here, but someone else misguidedly seeking it shouldn’t be met with surprise - what else is the legal debate and discussion if it’s not women looking for (now gained) validation of their concerns.

No, SSS are about women's safety, dignity and privacy.

We don't need validating as women, because we actually are women.

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:26

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:24

Really? What is it describing?

The prefix cis is derived from Latin and means “on this side of” or “on the same side as.

From the Britannica website.

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 10:29

Well strictly speaking many men like their own single sex spaces too

and many men believe that they show respect for women by using single sex spaces correctly - they don’t see it as an assumption that they are bad sex pests - they see that by using single sex spaces they demonstrate that they are being good and well behaved.

the male point of view isn’t always “ single sex spaces mean women judge us to be hateful people “ at all

from conversations with males many of whom find the transgender position quite uncomfortable and off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:30

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:23

According to biology, which is so important to you, there is. 'Cis' is just a descriptor, not a form of discrimination or oppression.

It isn’t “just a descriptor” or a “trans woman” would be a biological female person who identifies as a man. It entirely references your ideological belief that a man can be classed as a woman in certain circumstances. It’s not my belief and I don’t define myself or the female sex class that way.

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:30

@HonestAquaMember so if cis is on the same side as woman… trans must be on the opposite side of woman. So man. So basically you are saying transwomen are men. Gotcha. So they don’t belong in women’s spaces by virtue of being the opposite of women. Now I get it. .

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:31

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 09:59

Yet we had a trans man come here and they had a good reception because they actually came here in good faith and with respect. They didn't stomp in and demand we obey pronouns or set the terms of the discussion with us, @HonestAquaMember . So that proves you wrong. It's sad you cannot be an ally to women and girls.

The levels of self sabotage some women like Aqua reach is high. I do have sympathy for women that have those views though, PPs post explained about bad experiences that can drive this thinking and it echoes some observations I’ve made recently.

The women most vocal in their advocacy for men identifying as women to have extra privileges (access to female spaces, pronouns etc) seem to have a variety of motivations:

Those who have had something bad happen which involved a loss of control (male violence) and are trying to regain that sense of control by being benevolent to men as benevolence is a sign of strength.

The ‘Queen’ type at school who likes to take the lame ducks under her wing as it makes her feel better about her deepseated and well hidden insecurities.

The competitive types who see other women as a threat and like to try and get one over on other women by being far cooler and ‘more tolerant than thou’ and implying that women who want single sex spaces are making a big fuss about nothing.

I wish a psychologist would look into this as it’s the motivations of other women that have most puzzled me in this.

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:32

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:30

@HonestAquaMember so if cis is on the same side as woman… trans must be on the opposite side of woman. So man. So basically you are saying transwomen are men. Gotcha. So they don’t belong in women’s spaces by virtue of being the opposite of women. Now I get it. .

That's a fundamental mistake.

Yes, trans means 'opposite side of' but it means 'opposite to physical body'.

So a transwoman is opposite to her physical body, of a male.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:32

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:26

The prefix cis is derived from Latin and means “on this side of” or “on the same side as.

From the Britannica website.

Yes, I agree that women are on the same side of women. And men the opposite side.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:33

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:26

The prefix cis is derived from Latin and means “on this side of” or “on the same side as.

From the Britannica website.

Does that actually make sense to you?

Because it doesn't make sense to me.

If "cis" means on this side and "trans" means on the other side, I'd read that to mean that a "cis woman" is a woman (meaning that the "cis" part adds nothing to our understanding) and a "trans woman" is a man. Because the other side to women is men.

But I don't think that's what you understand it to mean.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:33

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:32

That's a fundamental mistake.

Yes, trans means 'opposite side of' but it means 'opposite to physical body'.

So a transwoman is opposite to her physical body, of a male.

In what sense is a trans woman opposite to their physical body?

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:34

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:33

Does that actually make sense to you?

Because it doesn't make sense to me.

If "cis" means on this side and "trans" means on the other side, I'd read that to mean that a "cis woman" is a woman (meaning that the "cis" part adds nothing to our understanding) and a "trans woman" is a man. Because the other side to women is men.

But I don't think that's what you understand it to mean.

Its in reference to the 'same side' between mental/emotional/psychological and physical. If they are both 'the same side' it's cis. If they're 'on opposite sides' it's trans.

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:34

No no. It doesn’t work like that. Sorry. You can’t be on the opposite side of your body. Unless, very rarely, you’ve had your brain removed and it’s on the opposite side of the room to your body. Which i don’t think is happening here. You said a transwoman was the opposite of a woman. Which makes sense. And I agree.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:35

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:34

Its in reference to the 'same side' between mental/emotional/psychological and physical. If they are both 'the same side' it's cis. If they're 'on opposite sides' it's trans.

What mental/emotional/psychological characteristics are on the "same side" as having a female reproductive system?

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:37

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:32

That's a fundamental mistake.

Yes, trans means 'opposite side of' but it means 'opposite to physical body'.

So a transwoman is opposite to her physical body, of a male.

Really?? That’s not consistent or what you originally said though.

You’ve just added in the ‘to physical body’ qualifier haven’t you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:37

The Latin prefix isn’t in relation to any of that, it’s just something a 1990s trans activist came up with to justify why some men could call themselves a type of woman and make it sound pseudoscientific.

Chersfrozenface · 25/04/2025 10:37

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:26

The prefix cis is derived from Latin and means “on this side of” or “on the same side as.

From the Britannica website.

'trans' is a shortening of the word 'transition', meaning the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another, based on the idea of changing sex. It was coined in order to create an adjective other than 'transitional' or 'transitioned'.

Once it became widely used 'cis' was borrowed from chemistry, where it was originally taken from Latin. This was a retconning exercise by those who claimed that transwomen are a class of women as they needed a word for the other "class".

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 10:37

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:34

No no. It doesn’t work like that. Sorry. You can’t be on the opposite side of your body. Unless, very rarely, you’ve had your brain removed and it’s on the opposite side of the room to your body. Which i don’t think is happening here. You said a transwoman was the opposite of a woman. Which makes sense. And I agree.

Yes. Makes perfect sense.

Your logic is excellent.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:38

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:34

No no. It doesn’t work like that. Sorry. You can’t be on the opposite side of your body. Unless, very rarely, you’ve had your brain removed and it’s on the opposite side of the room to your body. Which i don’t think is happening here. You said a transwoman was the opposite of a woman. Which makes sense. And I agree.

I think many who’ve had significant MH needs would describe it as being on the opposite side to their body, not being in agreement with it. That’s what dysmorphia is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:39

It doesn’t mean that their mental state defines the reality for everyone else though @SleeplessInWherever

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.