Feeling really let down by (gay) male friends

[BabyOrca]

I need some help unpicking my feelings and wondering if I'm alone.
I've felt really let down by gay male friends specifically following the SC judgment, I think it's because women have traditionally been a safe space for gay men. We've been there as allies, marching for Pride, supporting them as our friends but also more widely on a social level.
I feel gutted that among my friends at least, this doesn't seem to be returned now.
At the same time I'm struggling with the sense that you don't do something to get something in return.

I’m sorry you’re feeling let down by friends, that’s always difficult no matter the reason. Sadly, there is a strong undercurrent of misogyny in some corners of gay “culture” - what is it about drag and gay men, for a start? - but even without this, I wouldn’t expect gay men to know much about being a woman at all, since they are not even interested in them as sexual or romantic partners.

Not all gay men, though - some have been vocal about transmen expecting relationships with them, in the same way that some transwomen expect lesbians to suddenly be fine with a penis.

@glowfrog
Thank you for your reply! I'm particularly worried about one friend: we've been friends for two decades now, and he knows I'm not an ally but I don't think he realises just how GC I am. He's a huge ally and I'm scared I'm going to lose him as a friend if I speak out.

Gay men are men - lots of them hate or are indifferent to women just like straight men

I agree with @glowfrog. There is an inherent misogyny. If you're scared of losing a friend, then it isn't really a friendship. A friendship, like any meaningful relationship, should be a safe space.

I have a friend from my uni days who is pretty full on libertarian, was all for Brexit etc - knowing that I’m French and have lived in the UK for so long. We had a baby almost at the same time and he was a stay at home dad so we saw a lot of each other for a good year +. He ended up coming off FB but when he rejoined, he didn’t friend me again. We are in touch via WhatsApp (just sending each other funny memes) but there’s a tacit agreement that we don’t talk politics at all.

It’s a shame and I feel a bit sad about it, but there’s nothing you can do when you have such strong political or otherwise disagreement with someone you care about. At best, the friendship becomes very diluted; at worst, you lose it altogether. You just have to decide which you can live with better.

Years ago when magazines were a thing I flicked through some magazines for gay men and was appalled at the misogyny.

I've never noticed gay men marching for women's rights. I have noticed lesbians being kicked out of events and erased without a whimper.

Gay men act very much like straight men when it comes to women, if it doesn't directly effect them, they don't care.

I have a gay male friend who is up to his eyeballs in trans ideology. He posted on FB the other day about how feminists in the UK (he lives in another European country) have got it all completely wrong and are doing the work of Conservatives and fascists 🙄 this was in response to the Supreme Court judgement of course

We had a pretty heated discussion a few years ago about this whole topic so I've known for a while that he's a massive disappointment and I feel really let down by him.

Misogyny doesn't skip gay men unfortunately. They have dominated the LGB.

Gay men are as misogyntic as straight men, in my experience sometimes even more so. Men will always support other men and throw women under the bus.

'Men will always support other men and throw women under the bus.'

I hear you, but they don't seem short of handmaidens who have been full of talk about their 'trans sisters' and how 'heartbroken for the trans community' they are in the past few days. I find that beyond depressing

Women's support of gay men has never been reciprocated. Gay organisations historically either sidelined or actively attacked lesbians. They see women as a resouce just as much as straight men do, but have less use for that resource so less reason to even pretend we're important to them.

There are individual exceptions, of course, but as a class they're not and never have been on our side.

This may be a minority opinion, but I find gay men to be misogynistic and to have very little interest in things which affect me. I know we're both supposed to be fighting the patriarchy of straight men but, well, I hope it's not going to come over as a weird case of penvy, but they can claim all the gains that having one can give them and I can't!
(Yes it does sound like penvy doesn't it?, I need to word it better!)

I’ve always found gay men to be pretty superficial. I had a few gay friends when I was young but they were really just to have laugh on a night out with. Once I settled down and had a child etc they weren’t really interested.
There was a post on here today about someone’s gay friends re the trans rights issue and they were taking about how the gay friend seemed to need to support it all to stay ‘in’ with the LGBT community and keep his sex life going. Hadn’t really thought of it like that before but makes sense.

We’re support animals. Useful to have around. Like fridges and other white goods.

Sadly this has been my experience too.

One of my gay friends is all over social media bleating about how awful the SC judgment is and denigrating women. This was after posting how he was for everyone's rights including women rights but then in the very same breath rants about why women need 'their own groups" anyway and why cant men join them because having separate groups is "divisive".

There is not even a sliver of understanding there whatsoever about what women may go through. Yet he considers himself to be "empathic" and stands for oppressed groups. It's entirely and almost laughably hypocritical.

Its made me realise that gay men arent allies at all. They are just men who dont even have the thinnest of pretences of respecting women because they dont want to shag them so basically in their eyes, they are worthless and completely irrelevant. It's honestly shocking. I've had seen more support from straight men than from gay men.

As PP have said- gay men are still men and benefit from being that gender whether they want to admit it or not.

In my experience, gay men behave no differently to the way straight men treat women they dont find attractive- like they're lesser human beings because they have no "value" in terms of attractiveness or reproduction so what good are they? They dont care.

Some of the most misogynistic things ive ever heard in my life have come from gay men.

It came as a bit of a shock to me. I was a teenager in the 90s, so grew up believing that gay men and straight women were natural allies. And then, the gender politics of the last few years made it acceptable for men to publicly scold women for wrongthink. I was surprised to see how enthusiastically some gay men joined in with the scolding and how some men (regardless of sexuality) were noticeably more deferential to the men who disagreed with them compared with the women.

That said, some gay men have stood up for women's rights despite the personal cost. One notable example is James Dreyfus.👏

@velvetcoatthe one question I want to ask gay men who take that kind of view is: so you would definitely shag a transman, right? You’re not fussed about the vagina-having, right?

Gay men are still men and many men are misogynists, whether they acknowledge that or not, but they show it through their actions and/or their indifference to the issues of women. Gay men have no skin in the women game either. We're friends/allies, but most of the gay men I know live a very man-centric life, due to their sexuality. They aren't exposed to or particularly interested in the things that affect women, because they don't affect them. I know it's not ALL gay men, some really do get it, but IME many simply haven't given it any thought at all from the female POV.

Exactly, and I know the answer to that one- he would never, ever date a trans man. Despite the fact that according to his own philosophy they must be "men".

Its just a BS mess of hypocrisy and idiocy

This kind of comment is a prime example of the reason that you won’t be able to have a sensible conversation.

Most people take more factors into account when deciding whether to shag someone than what the body parts inside their nappy looked like when they were born. Hair colour, height, weight, accent, politics, dietary preferences, opinion on marvel characters are all examples of other things people might take into account. Gay men who interact with the gay or lgbt social scene are more likely to encounter someone who presents as different to what they were born with than the average woman in their day to day life.

It’s a totally irrational argument.

It is also worth keeping in mind that it’s possible to be conscious of and supportive of the significant health and safety end of the public perception of the SC ruling and not the more social conventions end that some see it as having. Toilet facilities being a prime example. There were never detailed rules or considerations about who used which one. Going into the wrong one by mistake wasn’t a big deal. Ballet audiences using the men’s to get through before the end of the interval was common. There will be people who think getting strongly opinionated about who uses which toilet cubicles is not helpful, while also seeing people who identify as trans as people who are hurt by the recent reactions to the SC ruling.

I feel exactly the same about my best friend who is a gay man. He was never like this but the last couple of years he is always posting on social media about trans rights. We had a massive argument and fall out over it. All he can say when I try to discuss it with him is that they are women and they need to be able to be their authentic selves. I am also shocked as the misogyny. When we were arguing one of his arguments was well what if your son decided he was as a woman but nothin about my daughter and how she should feel safe. I also know he would not sleep you a trans man as we have discussed this too but he thinks that’s different???!!! He’s really annoyed me and other female friends. I feel so let down by him. ETA: part of me does think he posts and says stuff to stay in with a particular crowd as when he does post something like this he gets a crazy amount of comments and thrives of the attention especially piling on and blocking anyone who comments anything slightly trans critical. Sorry if this makes no sense I’m tired and on a rant.

@ScaryM0nsterwe are not talking about the impact on the day to day life of trans people. Because absolutely (and as repeated by the SC, I believe, and also stated by JKR) trans people need / are worthy of respect and protection.

But what myself and the poster you quoted are talking about is gay men calling us names because we are asking them to follow their claim that transwomen are women / transmen are men to its logical conclusion - but to expect lesbians should be fine with penises or gay men should be fine with vaginas is absurd. Because transwomen are not women. They are transwomen.

It’s sad that the vocal insistence to the contrary from some corners of trans activism is now potentially going to create more problems for trans people, even though the Equality Act hasn’t been changed at all and the law remains the same.

So you wouldn’t object to someone expecting you to follow things through to their logical conclusion and shag a trans woman on the basis that they have / used to have a penis?

(assuming you’re a straight woman).

If you wouldn’t, fair play. You’re being consistent on your standards. If your response is that you’d think that was out of line, then give others the respect of allowing them to hold the same lines you hold
for
yourswlf.

@ScaryM0nsterI am indeed a straight woman and I fundamentally do not care who people want to sleep with or what combinations of top and bottom parts they like as long as consenting adults etc.

The expectation that we should all pretend it doesn’t matter is the issue.