Feeling really let down by (gay) male friends

[BabyOrca]

I need some help unpicking my feelings and wondering if I'm alone.
I've felt really let down by gay male friends specifically following the SC judgment, I think it's because women have traditionally been a safe space for gay men. We've been there as allies, marching for Pride, supporting them as our friends but also more widely on a social level.
I feel gutted that among my friends at least, this doesn't seem to be returned now.
At the same time I'm struggling with the sense that you don't do something to get something in return.

I've long found that being friends with a gay man as a lesbian was a bit of a one way street. It's a sad realisation I came to but it is what it is. Don't have any gay male friends now. I came across a one-time really close friend the other day online. I wanted to message him but then remembered how selfish he was and shuddered at what he might think about some of the issues that have gained traction in recent times. Better to have nice memories I thought and I'm glad I did.

I don't know why it bothers me more than straight men being captured. Maybe because when you've spent years sympathising and supporting someone you do actually expect it back. I definitely know that we won't be able to "agree to disagree" as another poster mentioned she has with her friend. He's all over this issue and I know I'm going to be cut off.

It's like a PP says, it feels like women have been "support animals" for decades but then the moment we need the support we realise that actually, they're just men.

Important disclaimer though, I know "not all gay men...". I have a gay relative who has disliked the LGB community being aligned with the T community from the start. The graffiti on the Millicent statue ('f*g rights') would have beyond pissed me off if I were gay.

@BabyOrcaas I’ve said upthread - you’d think if there was one group of people for whom sex would matter, it’s… gay men. For me that’s why it’s extra strange when they take the opposite view.

@ScaryM0nster The friend I am referring to would not date a woman who identifies as male but yet expects women to do it. Thats entirely the point. I dont give a crap whom he dates, it's literally none of my business.

What I am saying is- it's completely hypocritical to have one rule for whom others (eg women) must accept as male/female and a different rule for yourself. At least own (as you yourself point out) that hypocrisy instead of pretending that when it comes to you, it's somehow "different". Thats not a "consistent" standard is it? It's misogyny - as long as the person was born male they can be whatever gender they like apparently, but if that person was born female, they will forever be female in his eyes.

Virtually all homosexuals, gay rights charities, gay bars are pride events are supportive of and inclusive of trans people and their rights.

Lesbians aren't and they're part of the gay community.

I agree, the expectation serves as pressure. I posted on another thread that this idea that it doesn't matter what sex someone is or that you inexplicably don't really notice the sex of who you're attracted to really comes into play with attitudes towards bi people. We DO know what sex someone is and it DOES matter because our consent and autonomy matters and in a social context we're generally quite aware about how one is accepted and one less so.

But not of lesbians, gay, bisexual and transgender people who aren't politically on message.

Sadly, I think that's true.

The very small number of lesbians in the LGB-Alliance or other orgs that are specifically gender-critical are not representative of everyone.

Try meeting people outside of online and offline spaces that are gender critical.

When I see trans identifying males trying to latch on to lesbian groups the body language speaks volumes. They are not welcome, but usually one woman will be stuck in ‘be kind’ mode and try to include them. It find it quite horrible to watch, yet no one wants to be kicked out or barred for transphobia so the lesbians have to suck it up.

It can't really be said that LGBT people are supported to make their own mind up within LGBT spaces can it?

I'm not sure what you're talking about. You didn't mention gender critical lesbians or the LGB Alliance in the post I was responding to.

As for meeting people IRL, the irony!

Yes I've noticed one of my gay colleagues "liking" every post on LI which says what an abomination the SC ruling is. I have to work with him, but he has gone down in my estimation as a result.

But there is the lovely Mr.Menno - the campest Terf you'll ever meet !

I saw an instagram post by a gay male low level celeb talking about the SC judgement and saying essentially women were making trans women be at risk and feel unsafe as they would now need to use male bathrooms and how we wouldn’t understand how that would feel to be frightened - it made me really angry that a man would say that as I know most women have felt frightened or unsafe with men on a fairly regular basis

also the fact that he is not trans or a woman made me annoyed about the statements as he is not impacted in anyway but still wants to tell others how to feel.

men will never understand regardless of if they are gay or straight i fear

I've had dozens of gay male friends over the years. Only a small handful have been very pro women.
A gay couple who I would have considered my best friends at one point took it upon themselves to wrap all my birthday presents in Page 3 after they saw I had shared a #NoMorePage3 post when it was at its height. That was a kick in the teeth.

@BabyOrca I'm always confused by this idea that women and gay men are supposed to be "natural allies" (whatever that means).

Do you know all that stuff that women hate about straight men? Porn culture? The disgusting words they use to talk about women sexually?

Gay men are exactly the same. The only difference is that they're generally free to indulge in it, because there are no women present to call them out on their negative behaviour.

Yep, what shuggles says.
I was out with a group of gay men once. I can't remember the exact words but something along the lines of one of the men being the cleanest/best/most gay because he'd be born by c-section which meant he'd never even come out of a vagina. As the only woman there, I can't remember what I did, looked down at my plate I think while the other men chuckled.

@redboxer321 That, but also the way they refer to themselves and other gay men. Calling each other "sluts", "whores", or "pigs", and assigning labels to themselves based solely on appearance (bears, otters, etc.)

Being a relatively unattractive person, I imagine that I would find myself on the receiving end of a lot of unpleasant comments and scrutiny if I was a gay man.

IME too many women put up with things from Gay men that they never would from straight men

I came to see if there was already a thread about the BBC show ‘I kissed a boy’, or rather the reaction to the Trans contestant. This thread seems like a good fit for my thoughts though, my Twitter ‘for you’ feed is filled with people (primarily Gay men) quite rightly up in arms about being expected to find a straight Woman attractive, and being called bigots if they don’t. Well… that’s what Woman and particularly Lesbians have faced for some time now. Where were our ‘allies’ then? It’s only abhorrent now it’s very publicly happening to them?

If your gay friends feel part of the LGBTQ+ community then it seems a bit harsh to judge them for standing up for part of their community??

Also, to everyone saying that lesbians are completely at odds with the trans community, i would remind you that every survey/poll shows consistent support

"lesbians and bisexual women in particular are likely to have positive feelings towards trans people, at 84%, including 66-68% who say “very positive”. This mirrors national polling which shows that women are generally more likely to hold pro-trans views than men."

https://yougov.co.uk/society/articles/45983-what-do-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender-brito

You are allowed to have GC views, they are also allowed to differ in their views.

I remind you that basically everyone supports trans rights, but if you asked those same lesbians if males should be in female spaces, you would get a very different answer.

Also, I thought females - lesbians - were part of their (gay friends) community, too? But it seems the L part does not matter to some gay men.

Well thats a very disproportionate response, lol!
The lesbian community isnt a monolith, lesbians do exist who dont share your views. I am friends with many of them.
And to suggest that gay men who support the trans community just dont care about lesbians is a massive stretch.
People are allowed to have differing views to you.