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Feminism: chat

The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)

1000 replies

Magpiecomplex · 31/12/2024 19:15

Welcome all, New Year (nearly), new thread!

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WhiteHairedMyrtle · 07/01/2025 12:13

MarieDeGournay · 06/01/2025 12:08

Moving from norkage to AI - both equally valid topics at the Bluestocking, n'est-ce-pas? Smile

I heard an interview with the author of a book on AI which was very revealing. She said that it was a mistake to think of AI as a tool, it's more of a new species.

The interviewer pointed out that AI still makes a lot of mistakes and produced things that are called 'hallucinations' [that's when I thought of the Bluestocking and its many-fingered somewhat human creatures..] so it's not all it's cracked up to be. Or at least, 'yet'.

The expert replied that AI is replicating humans, and humans make mistakes so it's unreasonable to expect AI NOT to make mistakes. And AI is learning, 'like a child'

At this point, I had to pick my jaw up off the floor [no no please don't AI it!] - she was actually praising AI for being so human that it makes mistakes... whaaaat?
I wanted to ask her what the heck is the point of replacing humans with AI, if AI doesn't bring advantages like greater speed and accuracy?? Why not just let the humans keep their jobs, aided by forms of tech that can guarantee accuracy as well as speed?

There was a very muddled conversation about 'using AI for good' and the importance of regulation and how it was society's responsibility to see to it that it was not misused etc etc, but she didn't explain what control existing societies could have over this new paradigm which includes a whole new species..

She also said that companies using AI are responsible for all the mistakes that AI [inevitably] makes .... does that mean that everything produced by AI has to be checked word by word, presumably by a human, because you never know what nonsense, perhaps even actionable nonsense, it might come up with?

Shortly after bigging up AI for making mistakes just like us humans, she said that AI was already making great contributions in the field of ...oncology... 😱

Here's the book - maybe the interview didn't do it justice:
A Strategy for Human-AI Symbiosis.: Concepts, Tools, and Business Models for the New AI Game Paperback – 3 Nov. 2024
by Dr. Alexandra Diening.

Here are the explains I promised.

Where to start?!

AI is not a new species and is not capable of becoming one. AI is a broad term encompassing many computer tools that should make life easier for us. There will be considerable shift in employment patterns which will be distressing and will disruptive, but as in all revolutions, it will eventually lead to more but different jobs being created. For example, during the Industrial Revolution many men were put out of work because women and children were more agile and able to work in the factories and therefore cheaper. Men were reduced to "women's work" of mending stockings (I think Hobbes wrote about this), but their children and grandchildren prospered in jobs that hadn't been invented at that point.

Similarly, jobs that include checking things against a standard will go. For example, straightforward insurance claims and diagnosing illness from scans and x-rays. However, there will always be a place for human input. As Errol said, AI is really brilliant at saying that white spot on an x-ray is cancer compared to the human eye, because the AI has compared the x-ray to millions of other x-rays that had a white spot in that place that was cancer.

A human will be the person to break the news to the patient, we will still need personal care and physical presence for many jobs. Think of hairdressers, plumbers, bridge-builders. What's not so clear is a role such as teaching. Will we still need people in front of classrooms? Personally I think teaching will become more about nurturing.

Anyway, for a lot of office jobs, there is worrypanic that basic jobs will be lost, but take marketing for example. Sure, AI can write you a press release, which for a creative person can be the hardest bit - coming up with original content, because most marketing people are sick of finding new ways to say "our product is brilliant" and are better at rewriting "our product is brilliant" to say "our product is wonderful". But AI can write the initial text, but someone will have to fact check it while AI is still inaccurate and someone else will have to edit the text so it sounds human and not AI, and someone will have to write the prompts. I think these roles could be three different people, because they are different skillsets. So a single marketing manager could be replaced by three roles.

Essentially AI for rewriting is about predictive text. It takes the entire internet of all the sentences, mostly in English, not always accurate, mostly input by men without a female perspective or language. (As an aside, I love MN because the perspectives are mostly female. MN can be a complete bitchfest, but it doesn't pile on posters in a way that most social media does. It is supportive, it writes about pregnancy and children and parenting and relationships which are rarely seen elsewhere, and the responses are generally empathetic.) It then assumes from this what the next word will be. So you type in "The cat sat on" and mostly it will return "the mat" but it will also return "the table", "a mat", "a table", "a chair" etc.

This is why you can (and IMO should) ask for three versions when asking for output.

AI makes mistakes because it isn't sentient. It can't distinguish bad data from good except in some circumstances. It is trained to respond in the way that its creators and editors want. So, it is really good at anagrams for example, because it writes out every single combination of letters and gets rewarded when those combinations make real words. This was done electronically by matching words to the dictionary and also manually by thousands of people paid pennies an hour.

As a result you can watch Countdown and get the conundrum in 3 seconds just by inputting the letters and it will spit out the answer very quickly. Or the longest word available. But where's the fun in that?

It will get better, but right now it can't even reproduce the lyrics from I'm Not In Love in an image, or work out what a blackbird looks like.

As for AI being checked word by word, in some cases, yes that is happening. I am part of a project that is paid to factcheck AI responses and we are not allowed to use AI to check our responses. What's interesting is that the front page of the internet is now returning fake responses because so much AI has returned to the internet. This makes the job harder, and better paid. I think it's important to have women involved because we think differently and value different things. We are not so hung up on status or being "right" if we can avoid conflict.

Part of the project is to write AI prompts that force it to return false information, which is different to checking responses, and to ensure that its responses on questions about science, engineering and history are correct.

Those who think that AI will "take over" are generally men, because that's what they would do (see Elon Musk's involvement in global politics), or they don't understand what it is. AI is just machines who have learned how to predict things - that's why it's good at chess and noughts and crosses. The real issue is not AI taking over, but men using AI to take over, whether by fake news and manipulation of social and mainstream media.

The one thing that always wins is hope and I include love in that. AI can't hope and can't love, it can just return information that it has been told is "correct" because of the way it was trained to return information. This carries dangers because it could just keep returning information that runs on a loop that can't be broken.

However, AI is very energy intensive. Microsoft are literally (and I'm a pedant) looking at operating a nuclear power station at Three Mile Island to power their servers. The cloud has already superseded aviation in terms of emissions (that's not hard, aviation is only 3% globally, so I have no idea why people are so puritanical about not flying, when heating, cow burps and road traffic contribute way more!). So what might bring it down or restrict it in the end could be that it is so energy hungry that we can't produce enough power for it and live our lives.

I hope the explains help. Happy to answer questions, though I'm busy till later. Sorry if there are any typos.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 12:52

Thank you Myrtle, very informative 👏

I'm just preparing to <gasps dramatically for effect> leave the house for the first time this year (putting the rubbish in the outside bin doesn't count).

I'm suitably prepared I think

The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 12:54

Damn! I've already misplaced a glove!

ifIwerenotanandroid · 07/01/2025 15:06

Wow Myrtle, you have hidden depths!

I'm wondering what AI wants or needs, so it can be rewarded.

I'm worried about people thinking (a) because the AI said it, it must be true - I had people say this to me about spellcheckers when they'd chosen the wrong word, & (b) AI won't be allowed to do anything until it's perfect so we needn't worry about its introduction because it'll be perfectly safe/accurate. I'd like to think it wouldn't be allowed in unless it's perfect, & its current imperfections mean it can't take over, but I think it's more likely that it will be used while imperfect.

inkymoose · 07/01/2025 15:13

ifIwerenotanandroid · 07/01/2025 15:06

Wow Myrtle, you have hidden depths!

I'm wondering what AI wants or needs, so it can be rewarded.

I'm worried about people thinking (a) because the AI said it, it must be true - I had people say this to me about spellcheckers when they'd chosen the wrong word, & (b) AI won't be allowed to do anything until it's perfect so we needn't worry about its introduction because it'll be perfectly safe/accurate. I'd like to think it wouldn't be allowed in unless it's perfect, & its current imperfections mean it can't take over, but I think it's more likely that it will be used while imperfect.

Excellent explains from Myrtle!

As far as I can see, AI needs power - the electrical kind. So it would be helpful if in order to develop AI more, those people who are developing it could do something about the enormous consumption of electricity it currently uses.

As for using it when it is imperfect, that's what we're doing… To make the image with the woolly clad women enjoying the snow I had to shout at the AI and tell it off for being stupid. It initially gave me images of simpering nubile maidens (un)dressed in tiny shorts, not mature folkses in their woolly coveralls, and it left out the puffin!

Bannedontherun · 07/01/2025 15:16

Left out fuzzy WTF

ErrolTheDragon · 07/01/2025 15:19

Being used while it's 'imperfect' depends on the application and how imperfect it is.
An imperfection in a scientific prediction - whether made by an AI or other means - may be tolerable (vs no prediction at all) because ultimately you test it against reality. You may make predictions about the properties of a series of putative drug molecules, but then they have to be made and go through all levels of testing. And some predictions - such as the protein structures I've mentioned - you can cross check by conventional calculations and also quite often just looking at them!

A prediction of a future event where there are human factors involved otoh ... I wouldn't bet money on that but I dare say some people may try to use AIs to guide economic/financial decisions.

MarieDeGournay · 07/01/2025 15:25

Thank you Myrtle , that was really interesting - I can't help thinking though that we should move to the tech section of Pedantry Corner as we may be interrupting the gerbils' 70s tribute band fest in the main part of the BluestockingSmile
I agree that AI will be what 'they' [who are 'they'? discuss in 2000 words or more...] find most beneficial and most profitable, just as historically most progress has 'magically' been in the direction of what will make more money for those who already have a lot of it😡

And I agree that there are things that humans will always be better at, and 'intelligence' is much wider than 'cleverness', which is what technology currently delivers. There are lots of tasks which can be done so much better thanks to the cleverness and speed of technology, and bravo to it for that.

So I was surprised to hear the interviewee - who seems to be well versed in the actual techie side of it all - saying that the next generation of AI is going to be a whole new species, so we have to accept that it will make mistakes because it is replicating us as fallible human beings..

It sounded like irrational exuberance as far as the 'new species' claim is concerned, but also incredibly odd for a technophile like her to be almost celebrating the fact that the next generation of AI will be....error-strewn!

I think we should invite her to the Bluestocking for a hot chocolate and a little chat...😏
and keep it down in there, gerbils, Myrtle and I are trying to correct the direction of travel of an important technological and social innovation, if you please..😁

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 15:34

My first outing of the year was a wipe out!!

(Supposed to be having an MRI. Did the ambulance transport turn up? No! No it did not!

I pity the poor sod who on checking the voicemail in the complaints dept will discover a message from me. I think they want to talk to me even less than I want to talk to them given my last complaint is still being looked at by the Ombudsman a year and a half later!

Gaaaaaah.)

Bar gerbil bring me a very chocolatey hot chocolate. Extra marshmallows please!

FuzzyPuffling · 07/01/2025 15:35

inkymoose · 07/01/2025 15:13

Excellent explains from Myrtle!

As far as I can see, AI needs power - the electrical kind. So it would be helpful if in order to develop AI more, those people who are developing it could do something about the enormous consumption of electricity it currently uses.

As for using it when it is imperfect, that's what we're doing… To make the image with the woolly clad women enjoying the snow I had to shout at the AI and tell it off for being stupid. It initially gave me images of simpering nubile maidens (un)dressed in tiny shorts, not mature folkses in their woolly coveralls, and it left out the puffin!

Left out the puffin?
Shocking behaviour and proof of non-intelligence.

Magpiecomplex · 07/01/2025 15:38

I'll have what Boily's having please. Mid-marking and one student has achieved a frankly astonishing 25%.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 15:38

Mumsnet's algorithms correctly reading my mood I see! Perfect advert above my post!

MUST have known I was feeling a little stabby!!!!

The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
FuzzyPuffling · 07/01/2025 15:39

And I'm sorry to hear if your transport failure Boily. That's just not on.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 15:39

Magpiecomplex · 07/01/2025 15:38

I'll have what Boily's having please. Mid-marking and one student has achieved a frankly astonishing 25%.

So....

They spelt their name right then?

MarieDeGournay · 07/01/2025 15:40

I've just googled the woman I heard being interviewed re AI,
Dr. Alexandra Diening, a renowned cognitive scientist, tech anthropologist, and AI business transformation expert
and in this image, she looks like something that might very well crop up in one of those AI-generated Bluestocking crowdscenes!

Soooo maybe she isn't real, maybe AI has generated her and her books in order to prepare us for the 'inevitable progress' towards the New Species..

Here's the plan, Myrtle - I'll hand her the hot chocolate, and you can count her fingersGrin

The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
Magpiecomplex · 07/01/2025 15:44

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 15:39

So....

They spelt their name right then?

More or less. Sigh...

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 07/01/2025 15:48

Boily, so sorry to hear your transport didn't turn up, that's awful when you were depending on it for something so important🙁

ErrolTheDragon · 07/01/2025 15:54

Seriously shit. I wonder how many of the problems in the nhs are caused by 'horseshoe nails' - the bits which should be straightforward going wrong.

lcakethereforeIam · 07/01/2025 15:56

I keep getting ads for Scientology 😳and bowls of hyacinths from Sarah Raven.

Bar gerbil can I have what Beetle's having with whipped cream and a flake? Please make sure it's hot. So sick of tepid hot chocolate in cafés I never order it now. Tea now, if you order that in a takeaway cup it's usually the temperature of lava.

When my oldest sprog was little, she knew sauropod dinosaurs had four legs so she drew four, lined up like fence posts. When it was pointed out to her that their legs didn't look like that, her next drawing was more realistic. I think of AI like that. It's still a youngster. Although it will repeat mistakes, perhaps because there are different ways of making the same mistake and/or what we're correcting is not why it's getting it wrong.

ifIwerenotanandroid · 07/01/2025 16:01

Is anybody correcting the drawing AIs?

lcakethereforeIam · 07/01/2025 16:03

Sorry for 'we' I meant someone....anyone!?

ifIwerenotanandroid · 07/01/2025 16:10

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 15:34

My first outing of the year was a wipe out!!

(Supposed to be having an MRI. Did the ambulance transport turn up? No! No it did not!

I pity the poor sod who on checking the voicemail in the complaints dept will discover a message from me. I think they want to talk to me even less than I want to talk to them given my last complaint is still being looked at by the Ombudsman a year and a half later!

Gaaaaaah.)

Bar gerbil bring me a very chocolatey hot chocolate. Extra marshmallows please!

Aw, poor Boily!

Hospital says: Please tick one of the following two options. How do you feel about our service today?

The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
The Bluestocking: the one where AI finally learns what a blackbird is (we hope)
ifIwerenotanandroid · 07/01/2025 16:11

lcakethereforeIam · 07/01/2025 16:03

Sorry for 'we' I meant someone....anyone!?

That's what I meant - anyone, anywhere in the world. I thought they didn't get judged & corrected, or surely somebody would've put it right on fingers & legs.

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 16:35

Luckily, I phoned when it was obvious I wasn't going to make the apt.

The Patient Transport were very blase about the fact that the ambulance was indeed coming and they'd get me to the hospital, it would just be an hour after my appointment time!

Radiology on the other hand couldn't have been less impressed with them! They've slotted me in on Monday and my slot today went to someone already in the hospital who needs an MRI! So in that respect the missed apt wasn't a complete waste of NHS resources.

How hard can it be to run a competent patient transport service??

(Having checked their past record - very hard seems to be the answer for this particular ambulance trust!).

I can't wait to see which member of staff draws the short straw and has to ring me!!

Boiledbeetle · 07/01/2025 16:38

ifIwerenotanandroid · 07/01/2025 16:01

Is anybody correcting the drawing AIs?

I used to give it a thumbs up for the really bad ones just to fuck with it, but that doesn't seem to be an option on my current AI.

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