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Feminism: chat

What can we as a society do about rape (Gisèle thank you)?

126 replies

crosscross · 20/12/2024 11:38

Even as Gisèle Pelicot is shining a light...

Cameras in girls toilets...

rapes every single day in the news...

light sentencing (my rapist brother pleaded guilty, lied in court, so spent zero time in jail)...

Metoo forgotten

70000 men on a site sharing info about how to drug their wives and daughters

Men demanding access to girls' spaces

Evert single day more horrors emerge.

We cannot trust men. And yet we all think not my husband not my son (I even think that when it WAS my brother)

Society's no. 1 problem is male violence (sexual, physical, wars)

What can we do?

Get men talking about this. Why are they not already?
Get all rapists chemically castrated. Why are they not?
What else?
Please please please don't let the Gisèle momentum fade because... (Christmas, politics)

OP posts:
username299 · 04/01/2025 18:11

GeneralPeter · 04/01/2025 18:00

That’s very interesting. I can see reports of trials around 2017 (I don’t think they got time off their sentence) but can’t see anything about what happened after that. It seems that they mostly offered SSRIs, and only more powerful drugs in certain cases.

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/18/chemical-castration-soft-option-sex-offenders

Edited

I'm not sure what early release would achieve with a dangerous predator. They could easily be lying about how they feel in order to get out of prison.

GeneralPeter · 04/01/2025 18:21

username299 · 04/01/2025 18:11

I'm not sure what early release would achieve with a dangerous predator. They could easily be lying about how they feel in order to get out of prison.

It would only work if the chemical castration worked well on a high proportion of the men.

If so, then the way I’d implement it is to increase the headline sentences so that the ‘reduced’ rate is not in fact a shorter sentence than today.

I’d also personally (as a general principle, not just for sexual crimes) allow longer sentences for younger prisoners, and very long sentences for repeat offenders. On the basis that offending rates drop off significantly with age (so, keep them inside for as long as we can justify during their prime offending ages), and that a fairly small proportion of offenders commits a hugely disproportionate amount of the crime.

Riapia · 04/01/2025 18:52

I believe that nothing will change until instead of asking what “we” are going to do about rape, men start asking what they are going to do about rape.
Men are able to do more to prevent rape than we can.
They are the rapists , the answer lies with them.

username299 · 04/01/2025 21:31

GeneralPeter · 04/01/2025 18:21

It would only work if the chemical castration worked well on a high proportion of the men.

If so, then the way I’d implement it is to increase the headline sentences so that the ‘reduced’ rate is not in fact a shorter sentence than today.

I’d also personally (as a general principle, not just for sexual crimes) allow longer sentences for younger prisoners, and very long sentences for repeat offenders. On the basis that offending rates drop off significantly with age (so, keep them inside for as long as we can justify during their prime offending ages), and that a fairly small proportion of offenders commits a hugely disproportionate amount of the crime.

This is pie in the sky. The men who took part in the trials were volunteers. They could be volunteering because they want parole and have no intention to stop offending.

How are you going to ensure these men continue taking the medication? There's not enough staff as it is. What if they reoffend once released?

LoveRules · 04/01/2025 21:41

What an excellent Q to raise. Marking my place to send to others tomorrow.

GeneralPeter · 04/01/2025 22:05

username299 · 04/01/2025 21:31

This is pie in the sky. The men who took part in the trials were volunteers. They could be volunteering because they want parole and have no intention to stop offending.

How are you going to ensure these men continue taking the medication? There's not enough staff as it is. What if they reoffend once released?

I'm only suggesting it if it is shown to work effectively. But it's not utterly absurd. It's practised in various countries worldwide and was trialled here, as you noted.

Men not taking the medication could be recalled. They would be on licence. There is obviously a risk of re-offending, but that exists in the current system. What I'm proposing is that on top of existing sentence lenghts we add more prison (or, at the prisoner's choice, and if shown to work, chemical castration).

Yes, resourcing is overstretched. But I think resourcing for this, if it is shown to significantly reduce rape, would be well worth it. You are free to disagree.

OneWarySheep · 04/01/2025 22:47

I believe arguments against it are that predators don't molest because of sex but power and control and you can rape with objects.

Thank you for pointing this out. It really is important to understand that. Rape is a crime that involves sex but is about power and control. "I'm going to force myself on to you because I can" is the underlying mentality. That's the bit that needs to change. I feel like a broken record, going on about responsibility all the time, but it's for a reason. The change needs to come from within.

Chemical castration can reduce the desire for sex - a function of lower testosterone, but what it won't do is change the underlying thought patterns. That is where the work is required. That needs to start from early years. Prevention over cure.

When you've listened to a man looking at a picture of lingerie and then proceed to tell you how they would rip the underwear off the model and what they would then do to the model, it doesn't take a genius to realise the thought pattern is the problem.

For those thinking that forced chemical castration is the answer, think about your own thinking and desire for control. Same underlying issue.

How are you going to ensure these men continue taking the medication? There's not enough staff as it is. What if they reoffend once released?

Make it part of license conditions. It will show in their testosterone levels - that can be monitored. If they fail to take the medication, then they get returned to prison. Lots of carrot and a little stick.

What I'm proposing is that on top of existing sentence lenghts we add more prison (or, at the prisoner's choice, and if shown to work, chemical castration).

Our prisons are bursting at the seems. We are spending an inordinate amount of money on a system that doesn't work. Prison breeds mental health issues, people end up using drugs to escape the monotony, then violence ensues when they can't pay for the drugs they've already had on prison tick. Depending on the supplier, it's not unknown for parents, siblings or children to be contacted outside of the prison and told to pay the prisoners debt or the prisoner get's stabbed/slashed or even killed. I've heard rumours of violence to innocents outside prison because a prisoner has a chit in prison.

There are prisoners who could be safely managed in less secure conditions, and those who can't. Longer time in a closed prison environment does harm. For those able to live in relative peace, something like the old community hospitals - secure, but not closed. Their own place, they are expected to manage themselves, cook, clean, etc., and manage their medication. Instead of coming to the end of their sentence and being turfed out onto the streets, they have a managed move back into the community. For some, they may end up living in the secure but not closed environment because that's what they can manage.

If they use violence, they go back to closed prison and have to work their way back out. I suspect that would be an incentive.

i realise of course that we have returned to the Victorian days of the law existing solely to protect wealth, but I wonder if you do?

It's a bit difficult to miss with Donald Trump and Elon Musk's shenanigans. It always comes back to power and control.

SidhuVicious · 05/01/2025 00:27

OneWarySheep · 04/01/2025 22:47

I believe arguments against it are that predators don't molest because of sex but power and control and you can rape with objects.

Thank you for pointing this out. It really is important to understand that. Rape is a crime that involves sex but is about power and control. "I'm going to force myself on to you because I can" is the underlying mentality. That's the bit that needs to change. I feel like a broken record, going on about responsibility all the time, but it's for a reason. The change needs to come from within.

Chemical castration can reduce the desire for sex - a function of lower testosterone, but what it won't do is change the underlying thought patterns. That is where the work is required. That needs to start from early years. Prevention over cure.

When you've listened to a man looking at a picture of lingerie and then proceed to tell you how they would rip the underwear off the model and what they would then do to the model, it doesn't take a genius to realise the thought pattern is the problem.

For those thinking that forced chemical castration is the answer, think about your own thinking and desire for control. Same underlying issue.

How are you going to ensure these men continue taking the medication? There's not enough staff as it is. What if they reoffend once released?

Make it part of license conditions. It will show in their testosterone levels - that can be monitored. If they fail to take the medication, then they get returned to prison. Lots of carrot and a little stick.

What I'm proposing is that on top of existing sentence lenghts we add more prison (or, at the prisoner's choice, and if shown to work, chemical castration).

Our prisons are bursting at the seems. We are spending an inordinate amount of money on a system that doesn't work. Prison breeds mental health issues, people end up using drugs to escape the monotony, then violence ensues when they can't pay for the drugs they've already had on prison tick. Depending on the supplier, it's not unknown for parents, siblings or children to be contacted outside of the prison and told to pay the prisoners debt or the prisoner get's stabbed/slashed or even killed. I've heard rumours of violence to innocents outside prison because a prisoner has a chit in prison.

There are prisoners who could be safely managed in less secure conditions, and those who can't. Longer time in a closed prison environment does harm. For those able to live in relative peace, something like the old community hospitals - secure, but not closed. Their own place, they are expected to manage themselves, cook, clean, etc., and manage their medication. Instead of coming to the end of their sentence and being turfed out onto the streets, they have a managed move back into the community. For some, they may end up living in the secure but not closed environment because that's what they can manage.

If they use violence, they go back to closed prison and have to work their way back out. I suspect that would be an incentive.

i realise of course that we have returned to the Victorian days of the law existing solely to protect wealth, but I wonder if you do?

It's a bit difficult to miss with Donald Trump and Elon Musk's shenanigans. It always comes back to power and control.

I can't see this happening tbh as low testosterone is really bad for men. It can cause things like osteoporosis and heart problems over time. Not that I really care in this example but I can't see their human rights being discarded.

Lost20211 · 19/02/2025 18:43

crosscross · 20/12/2024 12:04

Honestly, I don't believe the gentle approach works. Look at football/rugby banners and minutes silences and charter of behaviours. It's all blah blah on paper, in theory.

Yes to education but we need to say more than it's bad to rape.

I just want to DO something instead of sobbing into my phone.

Why don't we castrate offenders? Serious question.

Shouldn't every offender be in a weekly offenders meeting like AA?

Castration is a permanent thing, so if a person truly were innocent, they can’t get that back. Unless you mean chemical castration?

Weekly meetings may well be a bad ideas. Support groups for offenders in prison just gave others ideas.

I personally don’t think it’s possible to re-habilitate sex offenders so think tougher/longer sentences is needed.

CurlewKate · 20/02/2025 04:16

Things won't change until men want to change them. Until men collectively decide that they won't prop up the misogyny that underpins our society. Until they are prepared to call out other men for the low level behaviour that allows worse things to happen. And until women stop colluding with them.

Youneverknowwhatyourgonnaget · 20/02/2025 05:26

This is such a worry of mine. It’s definitely not taken serious when in fact it ruins women’s/girls whole lives. We have actually turned a blind eye to our children being raped for political correctness. We need massive sentences up these with murder and deport anyone convicted who is from another country regardless of if that country is safe or not. It won’t happen though the people who rule don’t care enough

CurlewKate · 20/02/2025 08:12

@Youneverknowwhatyourgonnaget Yes, it's so much easier to blame "foreigners", isn't it?

Youneverknowwhatyourgonnaget · 20/02/2025 12:57

wind your neck in! I’m not just blaming foreigners I would come down hard on all rapes against women. British men should receive sentences equivalent to murder in my eyes and any yes any “foreigner” send them packing!! Women’s safety needs to be paramount! Your response is pathetic and just adds to why we have such a problem

LastRoIo · 20/02/2025 19:50

OnlyFoolsnMothers · 20/12/2024 20:28

Shut down only fans, porn sites- stop selling the bullshit narrative that it’s empowering for women. Remove the word domestic from
domestic violence- it’s just violence!
Make men pay for their children 50% fully or jail.
As long as men run the world we’re fucked

Part of the issue though is that women are the main viewers of bdsm and violent porn, despite men watching much more porn on the whole. It's been discussed on here a fair few times before.

These women probs can't really be called feminists but we can't really ignore them if we're going to say that men as a group should collectively take responsibility for the violent minority.

Female fans of pornography are watching more violence against women on film than men, a recent study revealed.

“Women were more likely to report being aroused by aggression, actively seeking aggression and wanting to see more aggression in mainstream pornography.”

Over half of all viewers, 53%, liked at least a little bit of aggression in porn — breaking down to 66% of women and 40% of men. Women, too, were more likely to go for “harder” expressions of aggression in porn and to seek it more than men.

https://nypost.com/2022/06/07/more-women-than-men-turned-on-by-aggressive-porn-study/

A quarter of straight porn searches by women are for videos featuring violence against their own sex. Five percent of searches by women are for content portraying nonconsensual sex. While men still search for significantly more porn than women, search rates for these more extreme types of sexual content are at least twice as common among women than men.

Those statistics make for fairly surprising reading, but are the facts Dr Seth Stephens-Davidowitz, a former Google data scientist, discovered when he was given complete access to PornHub’s search and views data for his upcoming book. “If there is a genre of porn in which violence is perpetrated against a woman, my analysis of the data shows that it almost always appeals disproportionately to women,” he writes.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn/

A 2012 study of 355 young women found that, overall, 62% of the women reported having had at least one fantasy about a forced sexual act.

More and more women are seeking out hardcore pornography, and that pornography is blatantly violent toward women. In addition to that, more and more young women are viewing pornography for longer amounts of time, according to the Pornhub data.

https://fightthenewdrug.org/women-watch-more-violent-and-extreme-porn/

In a recent article, Paasonen analyzes the responses of more than 2000 Finnish women to questions regarding their porn-viewing behaviors. The key question: “Is there a thing that turns you on, even if it feels confusing, gross, or weird? Tell more!”

After the program had aired, the producers provided Paasonen with the transcripts. In it, she found many comments about viewing violent porn, ranging from domination and submission to slapping and hair pulling, and even rape.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/talking-apes/202206/why-do-some-women-violent-porn

LastRoIo · 20/02/2025 19:56

CurlewKate · 20/02/2025 08:12

@Youneverknowwhatyourgonnaget Yes, it's so much easier to blame "foreigners", isn't it?

Tbf, GB News recently published the results of a FOI request that showed that two thirds of all sexual assault in London is now committed by foreign nationals. It was mentioned on one of the recent threads about Pakistani grooming gangs.

Portakalkedi · 20/02/2025 19:58

Michelle12A · 20/12/2024 13:10

Its Inhumane to forcibly chemically castrate somebody

It's also inhumane to rape a woman or girl. Not sure of your point. You commit a crime, you should be punished, and I agree that there needs to be a more severe deterrent to others.

SmudgeHughes · 20/02/2025 20:29

Worldgonecrazy · 20/12/2024 11:57

I fear it’s impossible because men have the power and men do t want to change.

In some ways, I think we have been fortunate to live in a time and country when rape is supposed to be a crime and at least have some rights. I often think how it must have been for women over the last few thousand years where men could rape with absolute impunity, so long as it was t a woman who was someone else’s property.

I think that has been turned around by the internet and violent pornography, which has normalised violent sex and rape. And children are exposed to this, on friends or their own phones, at school as young as 10.

Audiprettier · 20/02/2025 21:56

whydoihavetowork · 20/12/2024 18:13

Quite honestly... chop it off if guilty. Anyone caught will never do it again and hopefully it puts a few off. I'll probably be set upon for saying that but desperate times...

That aside, education and stamping out misogyny would be a start.

I do honestly believe something really shocking should happen to men as a punishment for rape! The problem isn't helped by 'powers that be' tend to be men. Only 2% of rapes result in prosecution - Can you imagine having to explain/be examined to/by a male after rape!! 🤬 Sod that!!
That is horrendous in itself!

If men knew there was a real deterent for rape, the numbers would decrease!!

Yes, we as women feel so helpless in this position.
I wish I had the answer...chopping it off/permanent eunuch medication is actually fine by me (but am guessing not universally possible-unfortunately!)
Even just ONE horrendous punishment would have a ripple effect!

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 20/02/2025 21:59

Ban porn, get back to an age where respectable men ensured women’s safety and didn’t take advantage of women.

LastRoIo · 20/02/2025 22:36

Audiprettier · 20/02/2025 21:56

I do honestly believe something really shocking should happen to men as a punishment for rape! The problem isn't helped by 'powers that be' tend to be men. Only 2% of rapes result in prosecution - Can you imagine having to explain/be examined to/by a male after rape!! 🤬 Sod that!!
That is horrendous in itself!

If men knew there was a real deterent for rape, the numbers would decrease!!

Yes, we as women feel so helpless in this position.
I wish I had the answer...chopping it off/permanent eunuch medication is actually fine by me (but am guessing not universally possible-unfortunately!)
Even just ONE horrendous punishment would have a ripple effect!

The problem is that the need for irrefutable evidence (the main issue in rape cases) would be even stronger.

There are definitely individuals who would maliciously report their exes etc.

AliasGrace47 · 21/02/2025 03:17

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 20/02/2025 21:59

Ban porn, get back to an age where respectable men ensured women’s safety and didn’t take advantage of women.

What does that mean in practice though? Women have the rely on a man being around, one she can trust. What if she wants to go out at night, the classic example? I know this isn't what you're doing, but people like the creepy evopsych Randy Thornhill & the misogynist Christian Nationalist Douglas Wilson often twist that into, ' A woman needs to stick around a male protector, & if she wants to be independent & walk around without one, what should she expect?' Men definitely should defend women from bad men when necessary but if that's the only solution then we're putting ourselves in the hands of men for safety, again. Not ideal... I for one don't want to have to feel I need a man around to pritect me. And what if the protector is a wolf in sheep's clothing? There need to be other measures. I'm beginning to wonder if women were allowed to carry guns, would that protect them? Fraught w issues, but one thing I like is being able to do the defence yourself.

Even Louise Perry proposes similar methods of chaperoning to prevent, I think in her case just for dates, but that doesn't solve all other times when you're alone w men. Ofc stranger rape is uncommon, so does that mean no time alone w male relatives, friends, colleagues or partners?

God, if they exist, made a terrible mistake in making women so much weaker than men & giving men a propensity for sexual violence. People complain about lower T levels these days, & it IS bad, but if it's reducing the rape rate that's a plus...Obvs not a solution though.

AliasGrace47 · 21/02/2025 03:31

Just to add, Perry does have some good advice on avoiding predators in her book, but it doesn't work for avoiding ones who can hide it well. Is there any way of avoiding such men, though?

CurlewKate · 21/02/2025 05:45

@Ritasueandbobtoo9 "Ban porn, get back to an age where respectable men ensured women’s safety and didn’t take advantage of women"

When was that?

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 21/02/2025 07:22

There has never been a golden age and I don’t mean that a women should always have a man around. However, I definitely remember a culture where pornography was frowned on instead of being normal and a decent man would not openly be derogatory towards women. The idea that a man could be in a women’s changing would be inthinkable and they would be perverts. Probably beaten up for it by other men. Now institutions take women to court for the right to do this. Mary Whitehouse was right.

Nicola1978x · 31/03/2025 01:14

Testosterone has a lot to answer for and as a victim of sexual assault I am entirely in favour of physical castration of all male sex offenders.

Simple off with their balls on the first offence; it's the only way to keep women and girls safe.

I'd go as far as to say those who view images of children, paedophiles and sex offenders should all be automatically castrated and subject to a total penectomy.

It would prevent them from reoffending and punish them at the same time.

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