What can we as a society do about rape (Gisèle thank you)?

[crosscross]

Even as Gisèle Pelicot is shining a light...

Cameras in girls toilets...

rapes every single day in the news...

light sentencing (my rapist brother pleaded guilty, lied in court, so spent zero time in jail)...

Metoo forgotten

70000 men on a site sharing info about how to drug their wives and daughters

Men demanding access to girls' spaces

Evert single day more horrors emerge.

We cannot trust men. And yet we all think not my husband not my son (I even think that when it WAS my brother)

Society's no. 1 problem is male violence (sexual, physical, wars)

What can we do?

Get men talking about this. Why are they not already?
Get all rapists chemically castrated. Why are they not?
What else?
Please please please don't let the Gisèle momentum fade because... (Christmas, politics)

Sorry I have quoted your full post, I know it irks people but thank you for replying to me, I appreciate it.

I will read that book next year, it's a topic I'm very keen on learning as much about as I can. I've worked a lot with women who've been abused as well as being abused myself so I have skin in the game if you like to try and educate myself as much as possible as to what will protect women and children.

I know sadly quite a few abusers and the ones who want rehabilitation I've not met yet personally but I believe that men showing signs the wany to abuse children or rape women should be given immediate and shame free support to combat those desires. I agree fully we should look to what works in other countries and base our models on the research of whats proven to be effective.

I know that when men end up on wings specific for child sex abuse they tend to find contacts. I used to care for a woman who's father sold her to his friends when she was a child, as well as abused her and she was extremely vulnerable. I'd sometimes be cleaning her flat with her and her father would call her and he'd be with the men who had raped her and her dad would be saying, "remember uncle Kevin? Say hi to him" and put her childhood abuser on the phone. She would happily talk to her rapist like he was her best friend. She was approaching 30s at this time and i fully believe that these men contacted her to continue to get off on relieving her abuse. When her father went to prison for her abuse the first time, he simply made more contacts to abuse her when they were out. And due to her vulnerability she was groomed by a local grooming gang. She wasn't a child at the time but she has significant learning difficulties. It was heartbreaking.
I also worked for a beautiful woman who looked like a China doll who had also quite severe learning disabilities and a group of men working in her building as contractors discovered her and she wasn't currently under any care services. What they did to that woman is haunting. Just ordinary men, married/kids just out working and the damage they did when discovering this vulnerable woman is unimaginable and every single one of those men said she consented to everything. Her inability to understand consent wasn't even recognised and the only thing that happened was that this woman was placed into social care.

I would love there to be a solution to keep us safe. And the thing is, men rape anyone from a newly born baby to a elderly woman, those who want to inflict rape on someone will find a way. Ageing doesn't stop our vulnerability. I remember my mum telling me that from about 12-25 I'd be most vulnerable and I was, she wasn't wrong but not because that's when I was most attractive to a rapist, it was simply the ages I drank excessively or I was walking home alone and late. I'd be every bit as vulnerable now if I was still drinking labrini until I passed out in the park. Women aren't ever free of the prospect of being raped as we age, we just aren't in the places that make it easier to be raped.

I think if men were at risk of being raped or murdered as frequently as women we'd have found the money for proper sentencing, rehabilitation and ways to keep them safe.

I don't know if you ever read a book called "good cop, bad war" I think, a ex police officer writes about legalising drugs. I often think if drugs were legalised and that cut down on crime would we have more room in prisons to keep sexually dangerous prisoners locked away longer. Or, which is a fear I have, without the earning prospect of drug money would the attention be turned to human trafficking? Would more women and children be bought as sold? It sounds a massive leap but people who'll beat someone to death over money aren't the most moral are they?

@nat6999 I agree. Offering predators a level of safety and comfort within their short sentences isn't exactly putting them off is it?

@happyinarcon very much a hard agree with you.

Whatever the answers are they involve money and our safety just isn't something important to them.
Look at how many lessons we learn from children dying at hands of their parents, "lessons have been learnt". Really because I could have sworn we've got a new devastating story about a poor wee kid dying horrifically despite SS involvement each week.
I feel bad for anyone who is a SW or chooses to be one.

It's inhumane to forcibly rape someone,and the forcibly part of the castration only occurs after they have forcibly raped!!

Same

In the past week or so, I've started looking at every man I see and wondering "is it you?" I went to the swimming pool and looked at each man, young and old, and wondered if he's happily going for a swim now having drugged/raped his wife/girlfriend/sister/daughter last night, maybe inviting others to do so too.

I've been on a few zoom call for work with Canadian/Australian participants who begin by saying they're "sorry for harm we did to our ancestors" speech. I would love to hear men address violence against women at every meeting, before every match, in every government session, MAKE them say the words however insincerely/automatically... At least, if everyone heard that every single day until it bores us to bits, it would become "common knowledge".

I actually think this would be a great deterant and a justified practice.

It would send the message loud and clear.

Men need to step up and speak out about the male behaviours that lead to rape. Quite a few of the women I follow have spoken out about Gisele’s case but not one of the men I follow have.

I think if men were at risk of being raped or murdered as frequently as women we'd have found the money for proper sentencing, rehabilitation and ways to keep them safe.

But they are like 4x more likely to be murdered than women are. Men make up the vast majority of victims of murder and violence and it's not even close. I have wondered before if that's why some are so indifferent to VAWG, because they just tend to accept the violent reality of life.

Men don't get raped or sexually assaulted at the same frequency as women. Men don't get murdered by their partners at the same rate as women either.

Women are disproportionately affected by rape and domestic violence.

Is anybody questioning that? I'm talking about the 'if men were murdered as much as us' comment.

Strictly speaking, it could be true because if men were murdered as much as women the murder rate would drop by about 70% and there'd be a huge increase in the available resources to deal with it.

Is it not inhumane to rape?

Ideally, we'd be able to solve it all but I sometimes wonder if it gets overshadowed by the fact that a lot more men get murdered and the fact that there are a lot more 'random' male homicides like that middle aged professional who was fatally stabbed by some 14yo boys in Morrisons after telling them to stop banging on toilet doors.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of femicides happen in relationships with previous DV or bidirectional DV (supposedly the most common pattern) compared to completely 'out the blue' femicides or family annihilation by previously model husbands. I think this possibly influences people's reaction.

The quote you included in your post was talking about rape and murder. You seemed to be dismissing women being disproportionately effected by sexual assault and domestic violence.

You don't get out of the blue family anhilation. A man who wipes out his family will be an abuser.

I'm not dismissing it, I'm just correcting the statement that men don't get murdered as much as women. It's kinda pointless if we're going to just make things up.

I disagree. Even on here people always mention how the killer was often described as 'a good man' or how shocked people were at his actions being a previously upstanding guy.

I think that kind of incident shocks people much more than a murder involving a couple who are always fighting and are well known to the neighbours etc. I used to live near such a couple when I was a student. The woman would often have black eyes and the man scratches on his face etc but I stopped phoning it in pretty quickly as about 75% of the time it would seemingly be the woman that kicked off first after coming back with a big clinking bag off booze - always on a Fri/Sat. I'd always hear her ranting and raving then I'd hear him shouting and sometimes smashing things.

I'd not have been surprised at all if he'd ended up killing her. I think I'd have been much less shocked than if the seemingly nice guy on the other side had murdered his wife.

You're going by people who know the abuser but not his victims. It's rare that an abuser is abusive to everyone, they tend to be abusive to their partner and children.

Anhilation often follows years of abusive behaviour.

Has anyone else read Tepper’s ‘Gateway to women’s country’? It’s an exploration of how crone island might actually work. It doesn’t really make much difference to argue about who are the greatest victims. The point is we’re arguing about who are the greatest victims of men. And women, and children, are the innocents here.

I don't understand this point. Technically speaking, men are the biggest victims of men. I don't think any demographic is automatically any more or less innocent by default. A man that is murdered for being gay or for being of a particular colour/religion isn't any less innocent just because he shares the sex of his attacker, surely?

@username299

Your last sentence makes an interesting point. I suspect you mean that the man who anhiliates his family has been abusive for years before hand. However, there is another, I suspect unintended, side to your comment - the reversal of what I think you intend to imply.

The 90`s movie Falling Down with Michael Douglas illustrates the idea perfectly. The man worn down by years of being abused finally lashes out and his response is anhilistic.

I've found this thread disturbing because it so perfectly illustrates one of the problems with the modern Internet. It is leading us towards polarised/extreme/entrenched positions. From the things I've read about the Pelicot case, it is clear that Dominique had ventured into extreme material and become de-sensitised to it, hence his behaviour towards Gisèle.

With some understanding, if you want to change the world that you experience, look inward. If you are fearful of the world, look at the materials you are consuming and who you interact with. You might not be able to change the world, but you can change how you perceive it.

I think part of it is being more specific about the problem: men that rape. Surely these specific men are the problem and naming, shaming and vilifying them is the starting point?

Why do I know what Giselle looks like, but not the men who raped her, why do they get media protection? If I Google Giselle pelicot rapists, I don't get pictures or a list of their names...I don't understand why.

I think part of it is being more specific about the problem: men that rape. Surely these specific men are the problem and naming, shaming and vilifying them is the starting point?

You think that social sadism is acceptable? That's what you are advocating for. The problem isn't men who rape, it's people who abuse in all it's multi-colour hues. The job of naming and shaming is supposed to be carried out by the courts, assisted by the press. Otherwise it's a form of mob justice which really does society no good. Think of Southport and the harm wrought upon that community by baying mobs after the death of those 3 innocent little girls. How much more harm was done to the families of those 3 girls in the name of mob justice?

In the Pelicot case, I can think of many reasons why the other men weren't named, and it has nothing to do with the men. There has been an awful lot of hurt come out of this case. There are people connected to those men; parents, children, partners who deserve protection from the mob justice that was always going to follow the case. By not naming the men, the courts have protected the innocents, not the men. Those who need to know their names, they will know.

Gisèle, for all her strength, has left her families name open to scorn for all time. Instead of protecting her children and grandchildren, she has put them squarely in the spot light. Without intent, she has harmed them.

Social media has a lot to answer for.

So do you think that she shouldn't have spoken out? Her daughter Caroline has written a book about her father's crimes. We don't know about the other children & grandchildren, that's true..... I don't like the undertone of your comment- Gisele is the victim of something unimaginable, and nome of this would have happened if not for Dominique.
Why are you blaming social media though? This would be notorious even if it happened before social media.

They are named on Wikipedia. I agree that further publicising would be dangerous for their families. Gisele's family may well suffer bc of her being named. But her daughter Caroline has written a book & founded a charity. Presumably her other children granted consent. She has wrought enormous change via this trial. In a situation like this, how can you know the right thing to do? I think the focus right now should be on the 92 rapes & at least 72 perpetrators, not an elderly woman's behaviour after a horrific crime.

I don't like the undertone of your comment- Gisele is the victim of something unimaginable, and nome of this would have happened if not for Dominique.

My undertone, if there is any, has nothing to do with Dominique. I'm pointing out that the courts offer the victims protection from the harm that the spot light creates in these cases. I think Gisèle is incredibly brave, but when the dust from this settles, there will always be harm from her decision to refuse the protection of the court. I haven't condemned Gisèle, but I do not think allowing the glare of publicity in is a good idea. If Caroline has done good from that glare, then well done her.

It is the courts job to protect the innocents, and sometimes to protect the innocents, the courts have to protect the guilty.

I think the focus right now should be on the 92 rapes & at least 72 perpetrators, not an elderly woman's behaviour after a horrific crime.

Personally, and the reason that I commented in this thread, is that I feel this case has brought about international shame. The most important thing that can happen is everyone looking inwards and reflecting on their beliefs and actions in the hope of preventing more victims, whether that is another Gisèle, or a vulnerable child being bullied at school. Prevention over cure.

,¿@OneWarySheep .. I believe that if Gisèle had kept her identity secret and had not insziszted that the videos be shown in open court, that some of those men would have walked free.