What can we as a society do about rape (Gisèle thank you)?

[crosscross]

Even as Gisèle Pelicot is shining a light...

Cameras in girls toilets...

rapes every single day in the news...

light sentencing (my rapist brother pleaded guilty, lied in court, so spent zero time in jail)...

Metoo forgotten

70000 men on a site sharing info about how to drug their wives and daughters

Men demanding access to girls' spaces

Evert single day more horrors emerge.

We cannot trust men. And yet we all think not my husband not my son (I even think that when it WAS my brother)

Society's no. 1 problem is male violence (sexual, physical, wars)

What can we do?

Get men talking about this. Why are they not already?
Get all rapists chemically castrated. Why are they not?
What else?
Please please please don't let the Gisèle momentum fade because... (Christmas, politics)

When a man is chemically castrated against their wishes it’s been proven time and time again they’ll use objects to simulate rape with, especially the sadists who enjoy seeing children and women in pain. When women commit violent sexual murders or assault some of the weapons used to “rape” are quite likely to kill a victim or cause the most horrific internal injury.
There was a child named Sandra Cantu who was murdered by a woman and sexually assaulted with something that would cause life long internal injury to a child. If we chemically castrate men I believe we will have more children and women die due to a rise in things even more sadistic than rape.
Ethically, castrating someone isn’t a concern to me if they’re a danger, fuck them, but practically I think unless the individual (such as men who are attracted to children but choose to not to act upon those feelings) chooses to be chemically castrated then it wouldn’t be a good thing for potential victims. The idea rape would become even more violent and brutal than it would be than traditional rape, is just too horrific to imagine.

its awful to really think about isn’t it? That rape is almost the lower end of the spectrum for the brutality that men can cause women and children.

When it comes to what I would do instead of chemically castration I’d keep predators in prison indefinitely.

Shut down only fans, porn sites- stop selling the bullshit narrative that it’s empowering for women. Remove the word domestic from
domestic violence- it’s just violence!
Make men pay for their children 50% fully or jail.
As long as men run the world we’re fucked

Absolutely.

I think more needs doing in schools & by parents. The curriculum needs more on this. Schools need a zero tolerance approach to phones/snapchat etc and they need to be teaching girls about consent & respectful males (I know they lightly do this but it needs tougher) and they need to be teaching the boys that what their friends are sharing doesn’t have a place on the world and girls are equal to them.

More importantly, it needs parents to teach their girls to spot the dickhead, misogynistic pervy boys who have no respect for girls. And to teach their boys not to be the above.

It makes me sick to have a DD who will be amongst this. There are so many lovely & respectful boys about but an awful lot that have potential to ruin girls lives.

Not as inhumane as forcing a penis inside them against their will

100% agree with this

An eye for an eye justice is an awfully slippery slope.

Should thieves have their hands cut off?

I was raped. He was a stranger and I was in a vulnerable situation and allowed him into my home (long story).

The thing that shocked and hurt me the most was the number of people, mostly women, who thought I was lying. The people who made it clear to me that they didn't believe me were my work colleagues, my GP, the private counsellor that I was seeing at the time that it happened, and my isva also strongly indicated that she didn't believe me.

It was absolutely horrendous to be thought of as a liar. From people who I thought knew me. That taught me so much about why men get away with rape. We live in a completely misogynistic society. That's what needs to change. Men know how easy it is to convince other men and also women, that women are hysterical and untrustworthy. I don't think I will ever completely recover from the reality of that experience.

My close friends and my family, and the police did believe me. So did the jury in the crown court, when they heard the evidence that I was telling the truth. The rapist was convicted and went to prison.

So many people who knew me, who didn't hear the details of the evidence, treated me so badly. Men rape because they think women are not human, and they know that everyone else thinks that too, so they can do it, enjoy it, and get away with it. I can only imagine that most people imagine that women are more likely to lie, than men are likely to rape. Changing the misogynistic attitudes in society is the best way to stop rape.

I'm so sorry to hear your story. People are as quick to castigate victims. Any sort of exploitation of power is despicable. Changing involves a global cultural shift, although I'm not sure it is possible.

I'm sorry @worriedhidinginplainsight This is so awful and you will re-evaluate who you respect after this. Yes, as soon as you're an adult there is some element of "she must be somewhat responsible because she dressed that way... let him into her house... smiled at him in the street"

I'm "lucky" in that I was a child at the time so I was believed straight away by my mother - that my brother had raped me when I was 10 and he already an adult. She had no doubt that he was capable of it and I was telling the truth. That was a relief. The rest of my family and the police too. Everyone believed me and he eventually pleaded guilty.

However, what all those people who believed me wouldn't do was speak of it to anyone. Shameful. The neighbours shouldn't ever find out. So, everyone just hid away for the 3 or so years for it to go through the courts. I was mostly on my own and to blame for the collapse of my family's good relationships. My mother was on anti-depressants, which was all my fault for "raking up the past", all "for revenge". For me it's this collusion/fear of association that's the problem. Everyone felt his shame probably more than he did himself and were intent on burying it. I still haven't been able to speak about it publicly because his kids were youngish when I was taking him to court. I don't know if his kids were ever told. How fucked up is that.

@Lwrenn Thanks for that explanation about violence and objects. I never thought of that but I totally believe it. As for keeping them in prison forever, we can't because we just don't have the capacity. What to do with all these men?

@Kunkka Thank you for replying to this thread. I would love to know if men actually talk about this stuff. Where and when? I know my dh will listen and nod sagely but he doesn't go beyond that.

I went out with a couple of female friends last night and thought about bringing it up but didn't because that would kill the Christmas mood for sure. Today we wake up to a tragedy in German Christmas market. Mayotte is dying of thirst. US politics are about to go crazy. This will die down as it always does.

I'm so sorry my reply is so long @crosscross please forgive me💐

What to do with all these men?

It's a big question isn't it? If only there was a straightforward answer! 🤦🏼‍♀️
Do you remember the murder of Zara Aleena, she was killed in 2022? With the murders of Sarah Everard and Sabina Nessa being so publicised many people don't remember Zara's murder, the man who raped and murdered her was released from prison 9 days before he stalked her (as well as other women cctv caught him following that night) and was a known danger to women.
Not long ago a murderer and rapist of two children was released from prison only to break his licence conditions and will be eligible again for parole. Gary Glitter, the minute he gets out of prison he's out hunting child abuse images, some people are beyond rehabilitation and it's sexual predators, murderers and paedophiles who seem to be impossible to rehabilitate.
I think prisons need a huge reform as does our sentencing.
Just because it costs money to house predators, it shouldn't mean they're free to rape and murder us.
The men in prisons who are peadophiles or sex attackers are often moved to different prisons for their safety. Those prisons or wings are usually quiet. Not the types of men who'll be making hooch on a radiator with an apple or throwing boiling syrup in the face of another fella for eating the last kitkat.
Sex offenders don't want to draw attention to themselves with men who are in for drugs and other criminal behaviour and as I say are often placed in safer parts of the prisons.
Since they're rarely the problematic prisoners, they're released early for good behaviour (mostly because they're terrified of the more typical prisoners who are in for violence etc) and I think if we're paying additionally for them to remain safe from other prisoners, there is something that can be done.
So I'm going to make up a man named Peter (sorry any peters reading this!) Peter is a model prisoner, causes no harm to other men, pleasant to the staff, isn't asking his visitors to smuggle drugs in and isn't planning on throwing his bottled rotten faeces at a prison guard. Peter just wants to keep his head down and get out. But unfortunately Peter gets out and immediately downloads 9000 images of cat a child abuse and is starting to fixate on a bus of school girls that goes past his halfway house twice daily. Peter, pleasant as he is on the surface is a ticking time bomb. But because of public spending giving him freedom Peter will within the next 6 months go on to stalk and eventually rape a child from the bus.
But here is my suggestion since Peter is clearly intelligent enough to use a computer, he may have had jobs prior to his conviction, he is able bodied.
When Peter returns to his "cushy" prison because he would be terrored in a typical prison, what if cushy prisom had job opportunities? Maybe using computers that only can access sites to do his job? Maybe he can do seasonal planting of seeds if the prison had gardens, maybe he could do printing or something? Because Peter isn't a risk to the prison staff or other prisoners, what if Peter lost his freedom to keep the public safe but used his wages to effectively rent a nice prison room? What if with his earnings that subsidised his new prison, but in return he had better food, comfier surroundings? What if they had activities etc? He's lost his freedom as a punishment, a shitty cell with a metal toilet isn't the punishment, so make it a nice room instead of a cell?
He can pay for it.
If he fucks up and does something stupid back to the prison with the prisoners who behave like animals (like my cousins 😂) he goes. But he won't fuck up because he'll not want a nice room and better food to be taken away if he's incarcerated until he physically cannot be a threat any longer to anyone, will he?
I think men like Peter (who I've worked with in their old ages, when they've needed carers)who are still capable of giving to society and having some quality of life, should be given that opportunity. It stops Peter from deteriorating in a cell.
It means he can pay towards his accommodation and better food etc and let's face it anything is better than your average prison. But mostly it can help towards housing men who shouldn't be walking our streets and keeps us safe.
If men like Peter where a risk to middle class white men, he'd never see the light of day again.
We have the money, just not to protect us.

Such an interesting concept. Let them pay for their own imprisonment. It feels like a system shift. Feeling overwhelmed...

Thing is, schools are staffed mostly with women who are also increasingly on the receiving end of misogynistic abuse from boys radicalised by incel culture.

Totally agree with you about the seriousness of the situation OP. And all the pps suggesting actions that could be taken. But that just illustrates the problem. Lots of women trying to solve a problem men have made. Just like we clean up their messes throughout their lives.

Men need to sit with this and be REALLY FUCKING UNCOMFORTABLE. And then they need to clean up their own shit for once.

@Lwrenn

Would that effectively mean these men would be imprisoned indefinitely for the protection of the public?

@Lwrenn

The difficulty with rehabilitation is that the person has to want to be rehabilitated. They have to want to change, and for some of them they need help to change. That costs time and money.

The book Inside Job: Treating murderers and sex offenders by Dr Rebecca Myers makes an interesting but sad read when you realise some of the staff were just as bad as the prisoners.

@GallyGaff
Most likely not. If you look at the debacle with regards to IPP prisoners and the mess David Blunkett made of that, for good reason those sort of sentences, unless absolutely necessary, are frowned upon. Scotland still uses OLR (Order of Lifelong Restriction), effectively the prisoner has to prove they are no longer a danger to the public - in practice very few are released, and most recalled.

However, with the still looming scandals yet to come out of the Post Office scandal amongst other cases - and there are still legal issues that need resolved, who knows where it will go.

What @Lwrenn was describing, effectively something like the old village hospitals, secure but not closed conditions, from what I've read of other nations does seem to work, but I doubt it will happen. The UK is too backwards, too tough justice over what is known to work. You do know countries have refused to extradite to the UK because our punishments are deemed too harsh?

As for what needs to change for society to get better, for women and men? As I understand it, It's a fundamental change that needs to happen. There needs to be understanding that the body isn't sexual - sexualisation is a process of the brain. And then it's about teaching and reinforcing the idea that we have a responsibility to never sexualise anyone without their consent, no matter what they are or are not wearing, are or are not doing. That, however, has a sting in the tail.

We could do with the internet barred to men for a start. The most amazing communications tool in history, a gateway to the world’s knowledge, and what do most use it for? Porn, including ‘porn’ that is actual rape, sexual abuse and now AI deep fakes being circulated.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20wejy47evo

^

Article from the BBC about this

It mentions 'male desires' - as if that in some way makes it justifiable. We need to change the language used.

I have a desire to eat chocolate cake every day - do I do it? No. Desires are manageable, not a god given right!

I went out with a couple of female friends last night and thought about bringing it up but didn't because that would kill the Christmas mood for sure. Today we wake up to a tragedy in German Christmas market. Mayotte is dying of thirst. US politics are about to go crazy. This will die down as it always does.

^

Yeah it's a bit bleak

I believe that many attitudes about rape are a kind of magical thinking ‘if I focus on what the victim did wrong I can avoid doing that and I won’t be raped’ because the reality, that it could happen to you too and there
might not be a thing you can do to protect yourself, is too horrifying to cope with.

I also believe all girls should read radical feminist literature and really absorb how much men as a class hate, exploit and abuse women as a class, and this would mean as time went on that teachers, mothers and older friends and relatives would all have had time to absorb this too. I think girls and young women should be encouraged to think hard about how our biology can disadvantage us.

Yes in an idea world we should be able to say to women 'don't worry if you go out get so drunk you nearly pass out and go back home to some random guy who has thrown you a bit of attention he won't go anywhere near you can just both sit there and have a coffee no harm' or say 'sure 16 year old daughter this random man you are chatting with has only good intentions so go meet him at his place alone all will be fine' no this is not the only way a woman can be raped there is an endless number this can happen and no sooner is to blame but common sense may help even a little

Let's face it, in the UK rape is practically legal when only 2% of reports lead to prosecution. We need a lower threshold for cases to be brought to court & tougher sentencing. As a rape survivor it would take a lot for me to report it if God forbid it happened to me again.

Stop rapists & child abusers being allowed to be segregated on separate wings in prisons, natural justice from the other prisoners may just stop them from doing it again & if some of them are finished off them so much the better.

More police, better trained police, better judges who send men to prison, proper sentence terms. We cant have such a huge breakdown in the institutions of law and order and decide to overlook this in favour of analysing toxic masculinity