Another femicide

[XChrome]

This is why people who bleat about men being killed more often and think it's a gotcha should just pipe down.
Men are not being killed simply because they are men. Yes, it does make an difference if somebody is killed because he got in a bar fight, had sex with somebody else's wife (or disrespected another man in some other way) was shot in gang warfare or killed in a robbery. Those are the typical reasons men get killed. These are terrible and tragic crimes, but they are not hate crimes. Hate crimes are considered to be more heinous than other crimes. We are right to be especially horrified by murder motivated by hatred based on sex, race, sexual orientation or whatever.
So people need to stop making this false comparison. The average man will never have cause to fear that he will be murdered.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/ottawa-police-deem-death-of-a-woman-in-south-end-park-a-femicide-1.7087057

I'm very sorry to read this. I'm not sure it's true though that men don't need to worry. Quite a few innocent men get stabbed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There was a middle aged family man stabbed to death near me fairly recently. He was a normal guy that worked for Land Rover. He was in Morrisons when a load of 14yo boys started urinating on the floor and kicking the toilet cubicle doors. He told them to pack it in and was fatally stabbed.

Given that there is a common sentiment/pressure that men should 'speak up' and challenge the poor behaviour of other men I think it's understandable for them to be worried.

Not even one post about the poor woman killed for being a woman. Not one and it's WHAT ABOUT THE MEN?

Excellent making of the OP's point.

Again, they do not get killed just because they are men. It is a different category of crime.
The crime you speak of is horrific, but it is not a hate crime. He was not targeted because of his gender.
I highly doubt the average man worries about random violence anywhere near as much as women worry about it.
If you don't frequent places where a tough crowd hangs out, aren't in a gang, don't do anything to antagonize other men and don't work in law enforcement, you can limit your vulnerability to violence to a level that you need not worry about it much.
Women don't have equivalent ways to limit their vulnerability, since most crimes against them are either committed by men they know and trust, or are completely random just because they are women. There is no way to adjust your lifestyle to avoid being vulerable without severely limiting your enjoyment of life. We've got these kind of life limiting rules; don't go out after dark, don't date, don't go to isolated places alone, don't have a relationship, get married or live with a man, avoid looking strange men in the eye, don't talk to strangers, if you're at a party or in a bar alone, don't become even mildly intoxicated (because that will make extra vulnerable), keep an eye your drink at all times and never accept a drink a random guy buys you, don't work in male dominated fields, be hyperaware and hypervigilant about your surroundings at all times, stay off public transit, don't travel alone to countries with high rates of VAW, when you do travel with somebody else, obey whatever the sexist local customs are so you won't be targeted for violence, and don't do anything to draw attention to yourself when men are around. If we followed those rules, what kind of life would that be?
For example, I am a wilderness lover. The woods are my one true happy place and if I could not be there (preferably alone as well) on a regular basis, I would not have much will left to live. It's how I recharge my batteries, find peace and serenity and it's the only thing that works. So if I was to obey rule three I'd have been in abject misery my whole life. So I have had to take that risk.
Men generally do not have to make their lives miserable in order to avoid the risk of violence.

I was responding to the OPs claim that 'the average man will never have cause to fear that he will be murdered.'

OK, I don't really want to derail the thread, but I agree that most violence against men doesn't really fit the definition of hate crimes.

However, I don't at all agree with your 'life limiting rules'. I use public transport every week as do many of my female workmates. I regularly chat to strangers and have lived with men in the past - most of my friends currently do and many are happily married. I'll happily drink to the stage of being a little tipsy in a public place and I work in a male dominated environment and mostly enjoy it. The rules you mention are self imposed life limiting rules IMO and most women don't live by them in my experience.

I'm not at all concerned about being murdered as it's so statistically unlikely (I'm many times more likely to die in a work accident or whilst driving) and if a partner was abusive to me in any way I'd be out of there in a flash.

I genuinely think I'd be more intimidated by the unpredictable type of stranger violence that men face - aren't they like 5x more likely to be assaulted by a stranger. Things like getting glassed in the face for accidentally spilling another man's beer or having your head stomped on for wearing the wrong football shirt etc. These types of violence don't come with any red flags and happen in the blink of an eye.

I'm not saying this to annoy you. I think it's illogical to suggest that the demographic facing the greatest (by far) levels of violent crime don't need to be on guard.

That is the whole point. You can't abide by those rules because they are life limiting. You aren't doing it and neither am I, because we want to have a life. Yet to be safe from violence, that would be what we would need to do. It sounds like you've probably been lucky so far. Others haven't and your luck could change in an instant. You are speaking from a position of relative privilege and don't seem to understand that not everybody is in your place.
Example; "I'd be out of there in a flash."
This implies women are to blame for staying with abusers, when in fact they are often afraid of being murdered if they leave or not in an economic position to support themselves, so they are stuck. You really didn't know that?
You're not annoying me, so don't worry about that, but I will allow that you are rather exhausting to try to talk to because all you seem to want to do is dismiss other people's experiences to facilitate your own denial of the threats women face. Please show a modicum of respect for the fact that many people, especially on feminist threads, have been victimized. That's why some women become radical feminists. They have experienced the terrifying reality of what men are capable of and it has opened their eyes. You seem to have your hands over your eyes and your fingers in your ears about VAW, which makes it rather pointless to discuss the matter with you.

OK, apologies if I've taken this thread on a tangent. I certainly didn't intend to sound like I was victim blaming. I just don't see men's and women's issues as needing to be in competition with each other. I guess that's where I'm coming from.

Undoubtedly, the majority of violence we face as women is at the hands of men, but I don't see this as a reason to try and diminish the experiences of male victims as they're not the ones responsible. I guess I don't really see it in terms of male/female like a lot of feminists do but rather in terms of victim/perpetrator and I'd rather work alongside the decent men to tackle these issues.

Even if male and female victims face different types of violence I feel it's probably the same type of individual perpetrating the violence in many cases or at least there are common factors.

I'm not trying to diminish their experiences. I'm saying feminist threads is not the place to discuss the problems of men and I'm just sick of seeing all the whataboutisms in these threads. Maybe you could start a discussion about violence against men under another topic? I'd contribute to that. I don't like to see people hurt or killed in general.
I actually have some stories about what may be serial killings of men which are being denied as such by authorities. So if you want to start a discussion about that sort of thing, feel free to PM me a link.

@SidhuVicious "OK, apologies if I've taken this thread on a tangent. I certainly didn't intend to sound like I was victim blaming. I just don't see men's and women's issues as needing to be in competition with each other. I guess that's where I'm coming from."

Respectfully, you are the one making it a competition.

Not really. The entirety of the opening post is about how much easier men have it. I don't really see the connection between a statistically rare crime (femicide) and the relatively commonplace violence men face.

The first is undoubtedly more grievous but given the comparative frequency of the latter I'd say it's more logical for men to be worried about the likelihood of experiencing violence. I know loads of men who've been beaten up but not a single woman that's been murdered.

The difference is that men aren't at risk for being men.

Violence leads to violence, so when men get involved with gangs, or kick off in pubs or at football matches, or drive drunk/aggressively for example, they are more likely to be killed/injured

Women are at risk because they have a vagina.

Yes, exactly. That was the point, not "men have it easier."

equivalent way could be not to engage in intimate or friendly relationships with men. to choose only schools and workplaces where men are in small numbers. to avoid any kind of activity that brigs you in proximity of men. it's hard to do it perfectly but nothing in life is perfect.
first point alone decreases risk significantly. by some 80%? or even more.

I know loads of men who've been beaten up but not a single woman that's been murdered.

You see the false equivalency right? I work in housing and deal with beaten women constantly. All the time. I don't know a single murdered man.

Violence against women is typically hidden and not reported. But I can tell you it's everywhere. And it isn't a fight in a pub. It's a sustained terror attack on a woman in her home. And the children are there watching.

And that's not even talking about what the OP is talking about, which is men who hate women so much they seek them out to murder. We don't even really name it in the UK.

The difference is that men aren't at risk for being men.

Is this true though?

The type of thug that goes out on a weekend looking for a fight to prove how hard he is generally doesn't want to beat up a woman because this doesn't cement his tough guy status.

The type of "what you looking at? / got a problem, mate?" interactions that end up with innocent men being headbutted whilst just trying to have a beer with their mates start with an interaction aimed at the victim because he's male, because the tough guy wants to fight another man.

A lot of physically large men state that (contrary to the expectation that nobody will mess with them) they're actually often the target of thuggish behaviour because beating up a big guy is a good way to prove how well 'ard you are. The average male won't want to pick on a big guy of course but they're not the men you need to worry about and actually if a smaller guy has done a bit of boxing he'll knock out most anybody with a good hit to the jaw (which they know).

Having previously spent around a decade working for a company that analysed evidence for police forces/prosecution I've seen a lot of cases involving male victims so perhaps have a better idea of the reality than some.

Anyway, this is getting a bit off track so I'll agree to disagree and bow out.

I'm saying feminist threads is not the place to discuss the problems of men and I'm just sick of seeing all the whataboutisms in these threads.

Then why end your OP with such a contentious statement as "The average man will never have cause to fear that he will be murdered."

You brought men into it in your opening post!

For me it's not just MVAWG, it's that when men are violent towards women and girls, there is absolutely no justice.

This, from yesterday, absolutely enrages me.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-14015267/Former-US-Air-Force-pilot-acquitted-kidnapping-nine-year-old-girl-London.html

A man finds a lost child, doesn't call police or the security guard on every door of Harrods - he takes the girl back to his flat where somehow she ends up with traces of benadryl in her blood stream and then on a jaunt around the parks of London where she remembers being assaulted and STILL he is acquitted of any wrong doing.

And that's not even talking about what the OP is talking about, which is men who hate women so much they seek them out to murder.

I thought that in OPs example the perpetrator was part of the family rather than somebody that sought out a woman to kill?

You have a point. I brought it up in the (foolish, as it turns out) hope that people might refrain from turning this into yet another whataboutmen thing. I see that this was the wrong way to go about it, but I do think it would have gone that way no matter what I said, because there are any number of people who are determined to turn every VAW discussion into
a whataboutmen thing.

🤬 This story is all too enragingly typical.

It wouldn't cut it down that much, because most rapists are known to the victim, not some stranger in a dark alley.
So to be safe from rapists you have to not have any male friends, acquaintances, coworkers, neighbours and not date. It's just not possible to avoid men to that extent.

FWIW, I would've probably refrained from making the points I did for fear of derailing the thread, but when you mentioned about men not needing to be afraid I thought "OK, well if we're going there I'll give my view" as I feel quite strongly on it - I'm not saying this to be a smartass/get the last word, just saying I didn't intend to take the topic off track.

I feel like I share the end goal of many feminists but don't strongly identify as one as I do frequently disagree on many points or the way many go about things. The bit that usually gets me is the tendency for it to turn into a 'battle of the sexes' whereby it often becomes a bit of a pile on and you can read some pretty hateful stuff (although of course I appreciate that many posters have experienced bad things at the hands of men so have a different perspective). Sometimes I feel that's maybe the intention of the OP as they sometimes seem a bit disgruntled when people don't bite, although I'm not saying that's the case here.

Whilst appreciating that we need to look at gender dynamics when approaching things like male violence, I don't really have the 'us' and 'them' attitude a lot of feminists seem to. I feel like most people, male and female, find male violence abhorrent and I see violent men as an individual subset rather than something that influences my view on the average guy, most of whom aren't violent even if men as a group are more so than us.

There are a minority of violent men that victimise mostly other men but still a large number of women. They're the problem to me. I don't feel it helps to undermine the experience of innocent male victims by trying to push the idea that men have nothing to worry about. I'd probs be more likely to have empathy for others that have suffered at the hands of the same demographic as me, even if the pattern of violence is a bit different - the end result is still trauma.

As I've said on other threads, I think the best solution is working with men and tackling issues as a society, and I feel that's how most people approach societal issues. I feel that the divisiveness often seen in feminism, whilst understandable, can often hinder the accomplishment of its objectives tbh.

@SidhuVicious
You don't have to explain why you made the comment you did. I realize that I opened the door with the clumsy way I expressed what I was thinking. What I actually said was;

The average man will never have cause to fear that he will be murdered.

This is not the same as saying men in general need never fear violence. My version of the average man is somebody who doesn't hang out in rough bars or with rough people, doesn't work in law enforcement, and doesn't belong to a street gang or other criminal enterprise. These are the common reasons why men get murdered. My idea of the average man is also influenced by where and how well I live- in a safe, middle to upper class neighbourhood where there is almost no crime. Naturally, this tends to prejudice me about the risk which I think the average man is exposed to, which is something I should have accounted for, so I'm glad you called me out for it.

I agree with the above comments about not turning the issue into an us vs them situation. Men have wives mothers, sisters and daughters, and care about their safety. I don’t understand why the media is trying to push the femicide label when they should be asking the police why they are doing so little to protect victims of DV.

This family would have been on the police radar for months if not years, no way this attack came out of nowhere. The media should be investigating not trying to stir up baseless hysteria.

@XChrome

Fair enough. I think you were talking about specifically homicide and I was talking about general violence. I agree that, despite the overrepresentation of men in homicide stats, most murders don't happen in 'typical' environments - i.e. it is as you say men that are involved in crime etc rather than 'normal' women.

I'm not sure the average woman needs to worry about being murdered though as usually there are signs (not always of course, as it could be that the partner 'turns' after being dumped or that they had a side they were hiding, as many abusers are of course good at love bombing etc like we often hear).

An interesting statistic would be to compare how many men are killed in 'random' wrong time, wrong place stabbings as compared to the total number of women being murdered. It would be a minority of the overall murders but given the much higher number of men murdered it would possibly still be a fair few when compared to female murders even though probs not as high a number. I'm taking about incidents like that guy that told those 14yo boys to pack it in for urinating on the floor/banging on doors in Morrisons toilets and got fatally stabbed.