Feminism Boards

[Superlambaanana]

Whats the difference between the Feminism Chat board and the Feminism Sex and Gender board?

There's a thread on the Chat board about the Girl Guides' trans policy- surely that should be on the Sex and Gender board? And I see threads about discrimination against women on the Sex and Gender board which aren't related to gender (in the trans sense).

Maybe it doesn't matter.

Or maybe the Sex and Gender board isn't intended to be exclusively about trans issues as feminism is obviously a sex based issue.

Or maybe the trans issue is now so entangled that it's impossible to have a discussion about feminism without referring to it, but I do hope that's not the case!

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a board for trans related discussions and a separate one for all other feminist discussions?

The trans issue takes up a lot of airtime here and seems to be drowning out other discussions about feminism- discrimination, women's rights, women's history, feminist literature etc etc. I'd welcome a break from the constant head fuck of the trans debate which I believe is, in itself, a form of discrimination against women as it is forcing us to spend so much time talking about men's desired rights!

If you really want to know, it's because of the naughty step explained above. Back in the days when media wouldn't report on any of womens concerns regarding self ID, males in female spaces, etc. MN was one of the few, if not the only, online space for women to discuss this.

TRAs tried to shut MN down. They went after advertisers and even doxxed users. They sent a SWAT team to Justine's home. This is all true and really happened.

The naughty step was a way of allowing women to continue to express their concerns but only in one place where it was heavily moderated. We had to stick to very strict rules. It was all very serious.

That's why the boards were separated. It was in the era of Stonewall's #nodebate dictum which they are conveniently stepping back from now.

It is not just about womens rights. It is about the total and utter degradation of modern society.

This isn't a bottom up rights issue, it is top down indoctrination.

I respect all the work that the determined women of mumsnet have done on this issue over the years and I honestly truly believe that we would not even be able to be on the verge of legal recognition for women's sex based rights via an amendment to the equalities act, without them.

However, understandably, given the commitment over years in the face of absolute gaslighting bullshit from a stonewall-addled mainstream, I would like to say, as a friend, there are strands on here that are starting to sound absolutely batshit insane. Mumsnet has always had a certain tendency to drift towards the judgey and the narrow minded (increased in recent years since it has become a lot bigger and a bit more downmarket) and where that intersects with the righteous fury (I'm not being sarcastic, it is righteous) and the absolute (necessary) tunnel vision on this issue it's all gone a bit Mary Whitehouse in parts.

I argued a long time ago against the various splitting off of feminism. I argued against FWR as a separate board (why? Feminism informs everything); I then argued against Feminist Chat as opposed to Radical Feminism (why? because you think it's ok to be a bit too feminist, but not too much?) and I probably argued against the current split (can't remember) but honestly I think now sometimes we do need to talk about wifework and gender pay gaps and VAWG without lurching into sounding like we are obsessed with men in dresses in toilets.

I completely understand in principle why sex based rights underpins all that. But talking about it ALL THE TIME just sucks up air.

Also. have you seen how many there are of those horrible reels where some no mark "comedian" does a bit something like "things your mum says when you -" "things your gf says when you -" etc and it's some stubbly guy in a wig and lipstick being deliberately hideous while delivering unfunny lines and you think: if this was actually funny writing it would be funny delivered by an actual woman acting your mum or your gf, but it isn't. I feel like we are indulging that whole misogynist strand of this OBSESSION with this weird horrible fascination with femininity / femininity in the "wrong place" if we NEVER talk about anything else.

It's all being dressed us various things which are just cover: eg:

It's funny because he's really a man!
It's glorious and empowering and he's living his true self!
People are so free now and it's great!
Pretty privilege is over and we can celebrate the beauty of all human types!

and so on but what it actually is, is:

It's weirdly erotic and kinky and shameful or at least erotic-adjacent and it delivers a buzz that is something I won't admit to

And it makes US look like THEM when we won't stop going on about it

I completely understand in principle why sex based rights underpins all that. But talking about it ALL THE TIME just sucks up air.

Well, that's that then.

I agree with some pp that there are more threads that just appear to be about a random trans person, character, men in make-up or something that seem to be posted here to get a reaction, and it being MN some people love to huff and puff about it. Not my cup of tea but live and let live - most intelligent people realise it's not a hive mind and opinions differ.

I have probably become more picky about what I engage with because of this (and the tendency to criticise appearances that pops up in threads).

But like the rest of MN there are some invaluable threads if you're interested in supporting charities, following court cases, tribunals and judicial reviews because the legal side of this is fascinating, hearing about how policies actually play out in e.g. the NHS, schools, people who work with vulnerable kids.

I think it's the way things go and the way to live with it is to choose what you want to engage with, raise the issues you want to raise, don't get sucked in to giving your energy to posters that are trying to get a rise or prove themselves right at all costs.

The most enlightening thread in ages is the AMA with a trans man who is actively engaging and discussing openly. And addressing the more off-the-wall posts with grace. Not behaviour that is very common on any large online forum!

It may be helpful to note a long history of community disrpution and disruptors on.the Feminism boards. Every so often there are campaigns to try and shut us all up.

Most posters didn't want the boards split. A small handful insisted they should have a space where trans issues were not discussed.

So MN obliged, created this board, and all the posters who'd been lobbying for it vanished like morning dew.

Sometimes they pop up again, confusingly, on the other board.

OP. I agree with pp that you should go back and read the history. Context is important.
It would be unreasonable to pick up a novel, only read chapter 20, then declare you didn't understand the plot.

Not only are they all over the other board, but express dismay at anyone suggesting that they put their non sex and gender threads in the board that they wanted to be free of sex and gender threads in the first place.

I think that is called 'hypocracy'. Or something.

As a brand new user thanks to all the veterans for explaining this all. What a shame that MN gave in to a small number of people in censoring what others talk about 🤷🏻‍♀️

I suppose it is confusing if you've just turned up.

There's been a long history of people trying to shut up the feminists on this site.

There are targeted campaigns to get rid of some posters, women were doxxed by an intern years back. The guidelines have changed every so often, at times we've been unable to talk about specific subjects - one used to be deleted for 'misgendering'. Or using the word 'cult' or 'grooming'. Some women were banned for protesting. Currently we are able to speak relatively freely.

We've often had trolls and bad faith actors.

Most recently the whole site has been accused of hate crime in a PhD by a student at Aston Uni, and the student has scraped data to attempt to prove this.

Women have found ways around it, although we've lost some wonderful posters along the way.

@ArabellaScott wow that is intense I had no idea. I personally have a pretty liberal attitude to trans issues barring prisons, sports etc. But all the same everyone is allowed their own opinion

Stonewall's slogan for several years was 'No debate'.

That was enthusiastically taken up by most of the media and many others.

Thankfully, those days are gone, but not without many women's dogged, courageous and difficult hard work bringing the issues to the fore.

Any attitude relating to any aspect of prisons and sports makes you a TERF.

Which is the point we've been trying to get across to the 'You're obsessed with trans people' people for years.

It's about men! No matter how they 'identify'.

IIRC no one asked for anything to sidelined. A seperate board to talk about feminism, that wouldn't be derailed by trans issues was requested.

Who was censored?

But wouldn’t that make almost everyone a TERF? Not to go off on something unrelated I’m just confused because most people think it isn’t safe to have male bodied people in female prisons. Even some transgenders agree. Don’t want to see them hurt in male sections either they should make another wing for them where they are safe. Same thing with having the open sports class if they don’t want to compete with men. Seems like a fair compromise and not excluding anyone which surely is what is meant by being trans exclusionary? I don’t think anyone who isn’t trying to exclude trans people from daily life meets that definition.

I don’t know I only just joined, I was just commenting on what was reported.

Yes, precisely. Totally normal stuff is sidelined as TERFy.

If you don't accept each and every trans/NB person as literally the gender they ID as, in all situations, yes you're a "TERF".

I know you won't be familiar with all cases but someone who worked at a rape charity was suspended because she gently suggested, internally, that a service user asking whether a Non-binary member of staff was male or female, could be reassured that they were biologically female. There was a big employment tribunal on it and it was horrendous to see the viciousness dished out to anyone who didn't 100% nod along with it in all situations.

Online I've seen tons of people hounded off groups and forums for saying there is any difference between a male woman and a female woman when it comes to sports and prisons.

Ohh sorry I see what you mean now. I misunderstood the point you were making @AlisonDonut . Well I have transgendered friends (MTF and FTM) and a nephew (FTM) who I have always loved and supported. They all have common sense and are just trying to live as happy and normally as possible.

So if they don’t think I’m excluding them then it’s just silly for activists to be saying that. Seems like they are fighting a battle that isn’t even being asked for by your average transgendered person. The people I know have had to deal with serious issues and nastiness and it’s ridiculous to compare that to just keeping women safe and represented. If anything it’s an insult to what a lot of transgenders have actually gone through.

@popebishop that is terrible. If someone has been traumatised like that then of course they need to know. Just like there are lots of wonderful men but that isn’t the right person to be helping a woman retraumatised by seeing a male again.

A lot of the activists in the news and on Twitter don’t seem much like the average transgendered person. Mostly they come across really nasty and often a bit seedy too. Probably not politically correct to say that, but you know… It’s a bit like with religion because the most extreme types get all the air time as the normal people just get on privately with whatever is their thing. Anyway sorry getting really off topic now 😂

You aren’t imagining it, it’s the difference between two broad categories of trans-identified males - AGP vs the traumatised and vulnerable. It’s not always a precise line in the sand and trans-identified males can be both or neither, but those two general types very much exist. It used to be more distinguishable but TRAs have broken down so many basic societal norms that we are seeing a whole mess of things coming out of the woodwork at younger ages.

No one was censored, we just have two boards instead of one.

Fair enough my mistake!

Indeed. The other board, for 'sex and gender', and this board for ... feminism that's not to do with sex, or gender.