I went to the Tavistock as a young person - AMA

[MAW1993]

I attended the Tavistock from 2008 to 2011, beginning when I was about 15. I made this post because I saw the many questions people asked on a previous AMA. Unfortunately, the OP was uncomfortable answering some of them, and I felt there may be a need for an AMA with someone who can be more open.

But truthfully, I still struggle with that fact that my life was changed forever and the knowledge that it wouldn't have happened if it had not have been for a foolish decision I made.

You weren’t foolish at all in my opinion you were just a young man excited to meet someone you felt a connection with and trying to do what you thought was right before you guys took it any further. The fact that she betrayed your trust is 100% on her and 0% on you. I had never really thought about how hard it must be to try and do these things that the rest of us take for granted when you’re trans but I can definitely say that the proper way to learn is not to make out someone did something that made them deserve to be attacked…

Honestly kinda broke my heart seeing you having to defend yourself and that you might feel even a tiny bit like you had some kind of responsibility for what happened. I don’t think the way you read the comment was unfair btw @MAW1993 its exactly how it came across to me especially that bit about not trying to attract straight women as if your going about trying to trick people when that obviously isn’t the case. If I happened to fancy someone I found out to be a trans man I’m not sure if its something that I would have pursued mainly just because I have always wanted biological children but I definitely wouldn’t feel like they had tricked me or I had something to get revenge about. How would that person have any control over what I felt?? The only thing I’d feel is dissapointed that someone I really liked didn’t seem to be compatible and also wanting to avoid saying anything disrespectful or hurtful to them

If you RTFT you'll find that OP covers these points early in the thread.

Hi thank you I appreciate it.

If it's a private matter then I generally prefer a female. If it's not then it isn't really much of a factor for me. That said there are definitely exceptions. I was under the care of a male gynaecologist for several years and he was one of the most wonderful doctors I've ever met. I would go to him over an unknown female doctor if I ever needed that kind of care again.

I do have some anxiety around specific situations but outside of that I'm a reasonably confident person. I don't think I'm asexual. You're right that it is the emotional side that I want the most. However, whilst I can't speak for others, I would imagine most people would choose love over sex if they had to pick just one. But I still feel sexual attraction and desire, I just don't feel able to act on it as I am. I did consider whether it would be best for me to date someone who was asexual but still wanted the romance side of a relationship. But as I do want to have a sex life at some point in the future, I didn't see that as a long term solution. Ultimately I just decided it was better to wait until the point that I had finished with my transition. I wasn't expecting it to take so long though, but there were delaying factors beyond my control. I think that is why it has become particularly difficult in recent years as I really expected it to be a possibility before my 30s.

I don't follow any other threads here to be honest. I knew of Mumsnet as being a place where a lot of GC discussions take place but hadn't used it myself. However, a MN post was linked to on reddit and then I saw another trans AMA within this forum where the poster didn't really engage with some pretty core questions. I could see people were genuinely curious and it seemed a shame, hence why I made my own.

I would say there are many trans women who have very similar feelings and experiences of sex dysphoria as me, so it feels unjust that I am often treated with more sympathy than them in GC spaces. I get it to a degree, because I have seen violent and predatory behaviour from some trans women in a way I haven't seen in trans men. So I can see why that can prompt a greater sense of discomfort. However, I have met plenty of trans women who have never displayed such behaviour, and many who have been personally targeted by such individuals. I do believe in single sex spaces but think that gender neutral single user bathrooms should be supplied in addition. I think that is the best way to protect the safety and dignity of all. Trans people are put in a very difficult situation when they need the toilet but aren't welcome or safe in either space. My life is a lot easier now that single user toilets and changing spaces are more widely available.

In terms of other single sex spaces, I think it is unfair for trans women to be competing in female competitive sport. As much as it isn't pleasant for us to admit, our bodies are not the sex that we wish they were, or by definition we wouldn't be trans. And there is no doubt that results in significant differences in sport. I don't want to see a future where women and girls are not represented in sports and I do think that is a realistic possibility if access is defined by identity rather than sex. When it comes to prisons, shelters or other such spaces, I would like to see specific provision for trans people. I think we have unique health and social needs that would be best met that way, and that there are sufficient numbers of trans people to justify it now.

I think the best way that discussions can be moved forward in a non-inflammatory way is for people to try and recognise the legitimate concerns of the other party. For example, I think trans people should be sensitive to how their biological sex is relevant in some situations and how a recognition of this is not bigotry. On the other hand, it would be nice if people could remember that we are all individuals, and that for the most part we just want a quiet life without stepping on anyone's toes, despite the message put across by many prominent TRAs.

Thank you, I really appreciate you saying that. I still find it hard not to feel partially responsible and stupid for how I handled things at the time. Feeling so ashamed of yourself is very difficult so I think that is why that comment cut deeper. Also, I completely understand why many straight woman wouldn't be interested in a relationship with me because at the end of the day I am female whether I like it or not. So it felt unfair to be accused of targeting them in some way. By telling her before she attempted further intimacy my intention was the opposite of that. I wouldn't ever want to undermine someone's sexuality or coerce them into something they have no interest in. The only point I was trying to make when talking about sexuality is that I know for some people attraction to a trans person doesn't end up being the complete barrier they thought it would be. For some people it will be, and that's fine. No one is entitled to the affections of another.

I’m so sorry you have to deal with all that I can’t begin to imagine. Obviously I don’t think you were stupid or responsible in anyway and I also think you are far more than just what someone did to you and haven’t got anything to be ashamed of. I’m not trying to tell you how to feel because I have never experienced anything like that myself but I can see how it would have a terrible affect on your self esteem. But I still wanted to say it because I don’t think anyone else here thinks those horrible things about you. I respect how you have answered every question but it might be an idea to disengage with her because she keeps saying very cruel things and doesn’t care how it affects you. Obviously you’re a strong person and you don’t need me telling you how to run your life but it is getting to the point that I think it could be hurting you and I agree with mojo that it really is starting to feel like bullying despite her accusing us of of doing that

Thanks OP - my apologies for repeating questions - I was out when I posted & thought I was at the end of the thread when there was lots more to go!

Thanks for the reply. I'm GC & have found this refreshingly interesting as I honestly feel I am becoming more prejudice towards trans people in the last year or so. Mostly from feeling infuriated that TRAs completely deny the existence of a problem & from some of the vicious replies GC women get. Also the #nodebate & the lack of voice from balanced sensible trans people. I completely understand why you wouldn't want to put yourself in the middle of the argument though, it can get quite nasty, from both sides now.

Again, there would be very little issue, (apart from the physical harm to yourself which you seem to have thought through & accepted it's a risk worth taking), if a significant number of males weren't using gender identify as a loophole to further their own agendas. I can't imagine most trans identifying males writing as well as you though, or accepting anything less than total acquiescence.

Best of luck with your studies & hope the GMC are able to offer clear guidance on how you should proceed in practice

I apologise unreservedly OP I shouldn’t have said what I did about not trying to attract straight women. It didn’t occur to me how that could come across as an accusation instead of a safety concern. You have always made it clear that you respect other people and don’t want to over step their boundaries. I don’t believe anything bad like that about you and hate that I gave you that impression.

Thank you so much, I really do appreciate the effort people have made here to be kind and show support.

@MAW1993, you did absolutely the right thing in telling the woman who kissed you that you were transgender; as you say, she had a right to know that information so she could make a decision about whether she wanted to continue. What she had absolutely NO right to do was share that information with mutual acquaintances. Her decision to do so, and the terrible consequences for you, were NOT your fault in any way.

You come across as someone with a lot of love to give, and I sincerely hope that, when your phalloplasty has been completed, you will feel able to start looking for someone who will love you the way you deserve to be loved. When you find that person, it will have been worth the wait, I promise!

No worries, I assumed as much as I know it has become very long and unwieldy over time 😂

There is one thing I would like to point out, because many people are not aware of it. The process of bullying and abuse demonstrated by certain TRAs has been going on for quite a few years now, long before the current degree of public awareness. As well as targeting GC feminists, it largely began with targeting trans people who did not conform with their views and forcing them out of the community. Typically the kind of people who did not agree were also those who wanted a normal life and had no desire to violate the rights of others. As such, they are now largely invisible and have been superseded by those who have no such concern.

There absolutely are trans women who share my views, even if their voices aren't featured. Therefore, I cannot agree with your assessment that most biologically male trans people will accept no less than complete acquiescence. I understand where that view comes from, because almost all the voices platformed are of that view. I just hope you might remember that there are also many people who stay silent. Most trans people have faced a lot of difficulties and just want a peaceful life, so they stay as far away from politics as possible, especially when there are extreme and violent individuals involved. In my days it was completely acknowledged amongst trans youth that there were sexual predators within the community. Even back then, the feelings of those abusive adults were prioritised over our right to be safe from sexual harassment or abuse, or the recognition of our vulnerability as children. I was lucky, but I know of children harmed as a result, and that includes both trans boys and trans girls. That is why it feels unjust to me that the latter group are so often treated as indistinguishable from the people who hurt them.

I hope you will continue to advocate for the rights of women and girls, and stand against males who use a trans identity to facilitate abuse. I absolutely know that such people exist, and that there is a major issue with their behaviour being covered up and facilitated by the 'trans community' (though absolutely not in MY name). I just also hope you will remember that that isn't a universal truth for all trans women, and keep an open mind about what their true views may be. To be clear though, I don't think anyone should ignore red flags regarding someone's behaviour or to be expected to tolerate the violation their rights.

Thank you for your best wishes. I haven't had any reply to my correspondence to the GMC, which is a shame. I think they're probably too busy fighting with one another over the issue with PAs to be honest!

Yes, I only recently found out about the use of the epithet 'truscum' used against transsexuals/transmedicalists (i.e. trans people who have had surgery and hormone therapy) by TRAs who have often had neither. They have been treated abominably by TRAs.

I wish that you would stop presenting your opinions as fact. You are very wrong. I am a straight woman, I am not attracted to women at all, but I might well be to a trans man. I haven't (knowingly) met any, but trans men can often pass very well. I agree that the mechanics of sex might make things problematic, but you are once again speaking from a position of an authority which you do not hold.

Would you remain attracted to the transman once you realise there is a vulva between her legs? If so you aren’t straight. Sex is objective and these words have meaning. There is nothing wrong with being bisexual either.

Before you point out that the transman might have had her vulva amputated realistically very few do and no transman has a penis and scrotum, at most they have a surgical imitation. All of that is factual, not an attack or bigotry. I get you don’t want to hurt OP’s feelings but realistically an actual straight woman is not going to want to have sex with OP and it is cruel and dangerous to encourage that kind of delusion. Why not encourage OP to find women who can love OP for exactly who OP is?

Look you obviously have strong feelings on it all. But no one has told you change your beliefs, just to stop trying to make everyone else live by them. If you expect everyone to turn around and go 'no you're right and I henceforth renounce my beliefs' then this thread isn't going to be a satisfying experience for you.

I'm really not sure what you do want here, do you have any questions left to ask or do you just want to argue? I'm reluctant to just shut down debate across the board or preventing people from interacting with one another but I also think there are plenty of threads where people can thrash it out to their heart's content if that's what tickles your fancy.

Also I don't think I've ever seen someone use the word vulva so many times in such a short space of time. Obviously my genitals are what they are, and it's not like it should be a dirty word, but it seems like you just enjoy pointing out the thing that you know upsets me most as much as you possible can.

There are women who identify as straight who date transmen, just as there are women who identify as lesbians who date transwomen. THIS is a fact. You can disagree with their assessment of their own sexual orientation all you like, but you will not change this fact.

I really think it is time you leave this thread. You are continually offending the OP, who has been generous and patient enough to answer some very personal and difficult questions. Originally, I really did think you were well-meaning but utterly tactless; now, I'm starting to think you might actually just be quite cruel. If you are not, please leave the OP in peace.

Stop.stating.your.opinion.as.fact.

I completely agree. Enough is enough.

Quite.

@TicklishLemur everyone has been very patient with you and tried to be charitable. At this point, I’m really not sure that you’re not on the wind up, but you are out of order now, and it’s having a horrific impact upon someone who’s done nothing but answer everyone’s questions openly and thoughtfully. I’ve reported your post and you really need to leave the thread now.

We’ve heard you. We don’t agree with your perspective. Even the gender critical amongst us seem to agree that you are well out of line. You have said your piece and need to leave it.

THIS. With bells on. Do one.

I have also reported TicklishLemur and actually hope she is banned at this point. She has to be on the wind up.

I recognise that there are women who believe themselves to be straight who sleep with transmen. People will call themselves whatever they want and I am free to disagree. I object to the erasure of the true nature of sexuality, which is based on bodies not personality. It is interesting to me that you refused to answer if you would have sex with a transman with a vulva or even one with a surgically constructed version of male genitals. You want OP to believe that straight women will be sexually attracted to OP even knowing you would never consider sleeping with OP yourself.

I thought OP wanted this thread to be a place where people could disagree with each other as long as they didn’t insult anyone but if that’s not how OP feels then fair enough I will leave. OP I can’t tell you how sad I find it that you feel that having a vulva is so awful that you don’t even want the word said and would rather endure the excruciating life you have had. But I can see that your view is fixed at this point. I only hope the children that come after you get the help you deserved and that could have changed your life at a critical time.

With all due respect it's none of your business who @MsLuxLisbon would or would not sleep with, and you aren't entitled to demand such personal information from her. There is also nothing hypocritical about recognising that some women who date trans men will define themselves as straight, even if you would not consider a trans man a compatible partner yourself.

I hope there will be easier treatments for children in the future too, but if they don't work I hope they will still be treated kindly and with respect should they transition. I don't suspect that sex dysphoria severe enough to result in that outcome is likely to disappear in the future.