I went to the Tavistock as a young person - AMA

[MAW1993]

I attended the Tavistock from 2008 to 2011, beginning when I was about 15. I made this post because I saw the many questions people asked on a previous AMA. Unfortunately, the OP was uncomfortable answering some of them, and I felt there may be a need for an AMA with someone who can be more open.

@TicklishLemur do think that your childhood abuse is why you selfharm by choosing to be a lesbian

Is that question prejudiced and just plane cruel? If you think it is maybe you can understand how you made @MAW1993 feel…you might think it is just a meaningless identity but to him it is who he is and I would say that over 10 years of actually living as man plus a whole lifetime of wanting to be one is a bloody long time for a passing fad (just in case it isn’t clear I don’t think being a lesbian is selfharm or caused by abuse or really anything except normal human variation that should be accepted and valued I’m just making a comparison to how you treat transgenders)

I’m also an autistic, same sex attracted woman and I definitely don’t share your view that I would have been safer in the past!

Ticklishlemur I don’t want to derail the thread, but taking a leaf out of the OP’s book here and being diplomatic, I think when you have traumatic past experiences and experience of being part of marginalised groups, it’s natural to want to help others navigate that and to stand up for injustice when we feel it.

Unfortunately, you’re not helping anyone here or coming across well. You’ve been so persistent and intrusive in your questioning that MAW has had to recount some incredibly traumatic events in graphic detail in order to correct your erroneous assumptions about his past and his life.

It’s clear that you believe things about the OP that don’t reflect his experience at all. You can’t go round telling someone they have been a victim of CSA when they say they haven’t, suggesting that they are neurodivergent based on one throwaway comment (and I say that as someone with a very positive view of neurodivergence). You’re coming across as trying to rewrite the Ozp’s experience and to tell him that you, an internet stranger, know him better than he knows himself and are here to save him from himself. That isn’t ok, however benign your intentions have been.

I do understand the difficulty in letting things drop when you’re convinced you’re in the right. I can do this too. You (I mean one, not you personally) keep trying to explain because you’re sure that if you found the right words the other party would see it your way. Unfortunately though, when you’re talking about deeply personal experiences that affect the other person profoundly, and don’t affect you in the slightest… it feels close to bullying.

@WaitingForMojo 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

Hear hear, @WaitingForMojo . I don't want to come down too heavily on @TicklishLemur as OP has been so gracious with her, but I have to say that I was pretty shocked by her rigidity and her sheer persistence.

I feel like the thread may be drawing to a bit of a close. MAW I don’t have anything else to ask or anything significant to add. However I would just like to say again that I d enjoyed ‘meeting’ you virtually and your thoughtful replies have, in turn given me a lot to think about. As the mother of a trans young adult I hope it is ok to say that I feel quite emotional about the journey you have been on (though you clearly don’t need my protection 🤗) and I wish you very well. I hope you will be qualifying soon because the NHS needs you!

Thank you, yes I believed it had come to an end before to be honest but I checked in occasionally to see if there were more questions. I'll keep doing the same going forward but I think most people have asked what they wanted to by now. If further questions crop up people are welcome to post here, or message me if that is preferable.

Thank you, @MAW1993 . I've learned a huge amount from you on here. I wish you a very happy life.

I actually have got a question now that I’m over my shock at some of the ones before. So I get in a practical way how dating a lesbian wouldnt really work when you want to keep it a secret that you were born a girl but I was wondering if it would bother you from an identity point of view? Like if she respected you as being a man now but was only attracted to women and was attracted to you because you were born female would that offend you? Would you prefer a straight woman because then you’d know she saw you as a real man? Sorry hope I’m not being offensive but I’m honestly interested to get my head around something I don’t really have any experience with. I’m a very boring average straight person and have wondered stuff like how trans people find a boyfriend/girlfriend and how people define their sexuality if they date someone who has changed to a man but was born a girl

In that sense it honestly wouldn't bother me either way. At the end of the day I am female and always will be, even if my body looks more like that of a man these days. I get that sex plays a pretty key role in sexual attraction, at least for most people. As to how someone would identify themselves if they dated me, I guess it would depend on the person.

I have a few trans men who are open about it, though not necessarily immediately. They would find a straight women was attracted to them before they knew, and they would then have to disclose it to them. Normally that is followed by a bit of shock and people going away and thinking about it. Sometimes it's an immediate end to any attraction, but from what I've seen it's more often than not that people will find that their attraction hasn't gone away, which might be a big surprise to them. Whether dating a trans man would be right for them, regardless of their attraction, is another matter. But ultimately I think things often play out differently when someone has actually met a person and already developed that sense of attraction and connection, compared to how they would have expected to feel when considering it on a purely theoretical basis.

I also have a lesbian friend I know from college who was shocked to find herself attracted to a (biological) man she met in her late 20s. They are married with a baby now, so she doesn't really call herself a lesbian anymore. But she has said that she still sees herself as one because it's a big part of who she is, was her sole identity for such a long time, and he is still the only exception to her exclusive attraction to women. Bisexual didn't feel right to her in her situation, even though many would argue it is the accurate term. Sexuality is a pretty complicated in my experience, and I think a lot of people just use the word they think fits them best, even if it isn't a perfect description or if other people would disagree with that designation.

But for me, it wouldn't matter how they defined themselves in relation to me being trans, as long as they were a decent person and weren't only interested because they wanted to try something 'new' or experiment. Obviously people are entitled to experiment if they want to, but it isn't what I'm looking for personally. Practically though, it wouldn't be possible for me to both date a lesbian and remain stealth, especially as it wouldn't ever feel sit right to me to ask someone to hide their sexuality.

Thanks thats really interesting to be honest if I had just asked myself would I be attracted to a trans man the answer would have been an immediate no. But then I thought about my husband and actually I don’t know if it would have changed how I felt if he had told me that (hes not trans I just mean if it had happened) so I can see why it wouldn’t be completely straightforward if you already started to fall for someone and then found out especially if they already finished all the surgeries and their body wasn’t that different from what your used to

With you keeping it all a secret do you get situations where a woman fancies you and you fancy her but you don’t tell her or take it anywhere so you don’t have to tell anyone you were born a girl?

Yeah that's basically how it plays out every time. There is another student on my course who I have strong feelings for and I know she is attracted to me. But I just don't say anything about my true feelings because I don't see any point when a relationship is not a possibility.

@MAW1993 I’d never really thought about how that must be before it must be really lonely and difficult to want a partner and have someone perfect in front of you and not be able to do anything about it. Not even just for the sex but being able to share your life with someone and the way they touch you that isn’t sexual. If I’m having a hard time and my husband puts his arm around me it feels so comforting right away. I guess things will be different once you finish your surgeries and you will probably be way more appreciative and make a good boyfriend because you wanted it for so long but could never have it

Thank you, I can't deny that it has gotten increasingly harder not to have that in my life. Especially as I watch all my friends get married, start a family, and so on. Obviously the disclosure barrier will always be there, but I think I will feel much better in myself and in being a trans man once I have had phalloplasty. I feel like it would be worth the risk if I was comfortable in my body and could actually have a normal relationship. But at the moment, I can't see the point of disclosing with all the things that can result in, when it wouldn't make me any more able to have that. Obviously a relationship is not only about sex, but it's an important part of it so I don't really see how I could start one when it isn't a possibility.

I think body/gender dysmorphia is a real and devastating illness. I have never said OP was going through a fad. I only have a different view about how best to help people recover and cope with their suffering.

The difference is that being a lesbian doesn’t cause suffering. Whereas even if we got rid of all discrimination OP would still be left with severe distress. I don’t think abuse is the only cause but it is in some cases. I based my view that it would be valuable for it to be ruled out in OP’s case on a number of factors that I have explained in depth. I am the furthest thing from prejudiced as possible and accept OP in OP’s entirety, which includes OP’s sex, sexuality and identity as a transman.

Thank you @WaitingForMojo you are right that I only want to help younger people who have had similar difficulties to me. I am trying to be the person I wish I had at that age.

I did apologise and feel very bad about my questions making OP feel OP had to provide graphic details about the rape and about personal habits. It was a genuine misunderstanding.

I do care about OP’s view and I didn’t mean to erase how OP feels about OP’s life, but sometimes it is easier for an external person to notice things. Especially when a person was very young because our memories are vulnerable to distortion and loss at that age.

You are probably right that I am just trying to make people understand what I mean. It is very upsetting when you are trying to help someone and people just see it as an attack. I would never want to come across as a bully to anyone so I will think about what you said.

I agree OP will be a wonderful addition. I wish all new doctors were as thoughtful

We are in agreement that sex dysphoria is different than sexuality, because the latter does not cause distress, in and of itself. We are not in agreement about there only being one way to manage sex dysphoria, but you are entitled to hold your own opinion on the matter. I don't believe you are motivated by prejudice, but I think some of your comments come across as treating a diverse population of people as homogenous. I appreciate that probably was not your intention, however.

Biological sex is the basis of sexual orientation. There is nothing better or worse about being lesbian, bisexual or straight. They are all equal and so there is nothing negative about a woman being attracted to a transman. But objectively she is not straight because she is attracted to a female person and straight women are only attracted to male people.

I’m glad you agree that it’s not offensive for lesbian women to consider you as a potential romantic partner. But I am sad for you that you have closed yourself off to relationships with lesbian women. That will only make your dating pool even smaller, and lesbian women would be the most likely to accept and understand you in your entirety. I do understand why you have too much anxiety to be open about your sex and that would be a requirement for you to date a lesbian of course.

All the same, I think it would be much safer for you to disclose that you are female to a same sex attracted woman, because she would realise how much danger she was putting you in if she betrayed your trust. Sadly the woman you told when you were young did not understand that or simply didn’t care about how it could affect you. I think that is another reason why it is not a good idea to try and garner the affections of straight women. Many would also feel betrayed when finding out your true sex and could be motivated to take revenge.

It must be very lonely and difficult for you to have to shut down your feelings of connection with another. The love I share with my wife is one of the joys of my life and I hope you will find the same one day. I just hope you will proceed carefully and keep yourself safe.

As I said, I do recognise that in some cases other people will feel that a label is not an accurate description of an individual's sexuality. But I also think that not everyone sees things as black and white as you do. Many people who have always considered themselves to be gay end up having the odd attraction of someone of the opposite sex, and vice versa for those who consider themselves straight. If you have only ever dated one sex and belonging to a certain community is a big part of your life and identity, I can see why you wouldn't want to suddenly redefine yourself as bisexual. Ultimately my belief is that it isn't for me to question how someone else defines their sexuality, and people should be free to describe it in the way that feels most authentic. I think there can be room for people to define something so personal in different ways, without that invalidating another person.

It is true that the girl in question was straight and I know I was very naïve to admit that I was trans in light of that. However, I have seen plenty of LGB people gossiping about someone they suspect or know to be transgender over the years, so I don't think they are automatically a safer option. I must be honest that it's quite hurtful to see her decision framed as a foreseeable consequence of my naivety, or as a legitimate form of redress for offence generated by the discovery of my sex. I don't go out of my way to attract the attention of anyone, but I can't control whether others view me in that way. At the end of the day, I was 19 and trying to do what I thought was the right thing after she tried to kiss me. I knew she was straight and might not be comfortable with that if she knew my sex. I never imagined that things would end up as they did. Maybe I'm taking your comment too personally or seeing something that isn't there, I'm not sure. Obviously it's an emotional matter for me so I might be interpreting it unfairly. But truthfully, I still struggle with that fact that my life was changed forever and the knowledge that it wouldn't have happened if it had not have been for a foolish decision I made.

Sorry I can see I’ve put my foot in it again. I didn’t mean it to come across like that. I don’t think there is anything you did that meant you deserved what happened or you have any blame at all. We have all made decisions that weren’t necessarily the wisest when young and especially when our hormones took over. That should never result in what it did.

I just meant it as a safety point because I know it is common for transgender people to be targeted because someone sees them as a threat to their heterosexuality. I don’t think that is ever right, but it sadly happens. Whereas if a lesbian or bisexual woman didn’t want to date a transman I don’t think it would result in that kind of desire for revenge.

To offer a different lesbian perspective- I absolutely wouldn't consider dating a transman who has been through the level of hormone therapy and surgery the OP has. Testosterone is extremely effective at changing the body and face, to the extent that most transmen pass very well. I just couldn't be attracted to someone who looks like Jamie Raines or Buck Angel, regardless of their biological sex.

I think I feel this way too. I’m open to the possibility that we can be taken by surprise in who we’re attracted to. But it would be a first, I’ve never been attracted to someone with more masculine characteristics.

I also vehemently disagree with some of the things that have been said to the op here.

Thanks OP for an interesting & honest thread

Do you yourself have a preference over male/female healthcare professionals for intimate procedures?

It really sounds that you have bad anxiety - all the things that you describe about the Tavistock questioning would be awfully awkward & embarrassing for any child to go through, or adult for that matter. Have you ever thought you were asexual? It sounds like you crave the connection rather than physical connection, (the connection would be the more important part to me also)

Do you follow any of the gender critical threads on here? I find your situation quite different than if you were a trans identifying male. Do you support single sex spaces for women & girls & do you understand the genuine concerns about having 'trans women' in those spaces? How do you think these issues could be discussed & be moved forward in a less inflammatory way?

Thank you!