I went to the Tavistock as a young person - AMA

[MAW1993]

I attended the Tavistock from 2008 to 2011, beginning when I was about 15. I made this post because I saw the many questions people asked on a previous AMA. Unfortunately, the OP was uncomfortable answering some of them, and I felt there may be a need for an AMA with someone who can be more open.

Thank you so much. I am glad that this thread has been a place where people can disagree with one another quite profoundly, whilst still treating others with respect and dignity.

I saw the same pattern of behaviour in trans people as non-trans people. By that I mean, I have witnessed a significant number of biologically male people who display sexually predatory behaviour, from both non-trans men and trans women.

However, I do find there is often a discrepancy in how we are expected respond to that behaviour. When it comes to trans offenders, being polite and considering the feelings of the perpetrator is too often valued over the concerns of people at risk. I think there is often an instinct to silence concerns and cover up issues perpetrated by trans people, which comes from both inside the community and outside.

Externally, I believe many people are scared of transphobia being weaponised against them for raising legitimate concerns. Internally, I believe people fear that admitting there are sexual predators will give credence to the belief that all trans women are predators. In my experience, however, most people are capable of distinguishing between the abusers and the larger community.

Thanks for the thoughtful and endlessly polite answers @MAW1993 , this thread is a fascinating read. (I'm coming to it after what looks like a big clear-up of abusive messages, which probably makes it a lot easier.)

I have a comment about Cass and the York research, where you report there was a promise to give patients the chance to opt out and yet you were never contacted. My understanding is that this contacting of patients is precisely what the adult clinics (yours included) refused to do: and, naturally, that then blocked all research because the York team couldn't proceed without patient consent. The York team of course cannot contact past patients directly to ask consent because, rightly, they don't know who those patients are. I'm sad that this has blocked any research at all on patient outcomes, but hope that this may be overcome so that any patients who are interested in participating will be able to do so.

Thank you again for spending so much time with the MN audience.

Thank you so much. Also thank you for that information about the review, I was not aware of that at all. I will wait and see if I receive any communication now. If I do I will take part in the research.

Thank you OP 🙏 can I ask what was it about the trans women / transvestites you mentioned that you kids didn’t like? Did they just give you the heebie jeebies or was it specific things they said? Really shocked about the lack of child safeguarding.

I’m so glad the nurse was kind to you after the incident. Those specialist nurses are just amazing and make such a difference for people ❤️ I don’t think you have anything you should be ashamed of in any way though! I hope you were given a good therapist to deal with it all

But oh my goodness some of the other stories. I am a nurse and that is not how a pelvic exam should ever be done. That is surely more like an assault if he didn’t ask your permission before starting. Did they ever get to the bottom of your water works problems?

I do have another question. If it was possible to click your fingers and start your life over as a boy would you do it considering that you would be a different person to who you are today? I personally think you are a wonderful person to have in the world just as you are but I know you’ve had so much difficulty in your life

There was often just a gut instinct about them, but there were several who were just outright inappropriate. The one I got a 2 month ban over had asked me and a few others if we got turned on using tampons. The position of the people who ran it was that we should have told them and they would have had a word, but that there was a zero tolerance response to 'misgendering', even though he was openly a heterosexual transvestite.

I did try some therapy but I don't think I was ready to talk about things at that point. I know it isn't something I should feel shame about but it's more of an instinctual response than a choice.

Yes it wasn't a big deal, its a benign condition that runs in my family. They just had to rule out anything sinister. I don't think the urologist intended it to be like that and it was over before I even had time to react properly. He had been very nice whenever I saw him and I didn't know if I was overreacting so didn't say anything to him about it when I saw him the final time.

If I could do that I would. Or, if I could restart my life as a female but without sex dysphoria. I might not be the same person but I think many things would be similar because most of my values come from how I was raised. Thank you for your kind comment though

OMG what a disgusting creature. I have read about a few before who seem to have a tampon fetish. Makes me shudder

OP, I am completely in awe of your self-possession, self-awareness and graciousness on here.

I'm also very happy to see that if you are contacted you will consider participating in post-Cass research, because thoughtful and intelligent voices are sorely needed in this. I don't have much truck with people bawling about lived experience to drown out women's voices but your story has absolutely stopped me in my tracks. I wish you everything good that is possible for you.

This has been a brilliant thread. Thank you, MAW, for your thoughtfulness and openness. There are some things we'd probably still disagree on, but I was interested to see that a lot of your take on the current thinking is very similar to my own. Ive thought for a while that the current actions of groups like Stonewall does a disservice to people with actual sex dysphoria, as well as to confused adolescents caught up in the mess and women losing rights to our own spaces (physical and metaphorical). I'm relieved to find that, by your measures at least, I'm not a monster after all...
I hope your life is and continues to be good. You have come though a lot to get to where you are.

Thank you so much. There are still some things I am working on, but I am the happiest I have ever been right now. I agree that the personal difficulties faced by trans people shouldn't be prioritised over those faced by women. In my opinion there are normally reasonable compromises that can meet the needs of both groups, but some people are guilty of demanding their own rights without considering the rights of others.

My understanding of the research is that it will be quantitative rather than being qualitative. The data sources they will be accessing are from youth and adult GIC services, hospital admissions, outpatients, A&E, mental health, death registration and community prescriptions. That is why they need access to identifiable information, as they have to link the data across different databases. As far as I am aware they will not be interviewing or recording the opinions of any patients within this specific study.

Not read whole thread so sorry if this has been asked and answered.

You mentioned your profound distress at your sex and your genitals. If there had been a magic pill, or a treatment that could have put you at ease with your biological sex would you have tried it? Also, do you know of any research being done to understand why people might be distressed by their biological sex.

Thank you so much for this thoughtful and informative thread, OP. Your mum sounds absolutely amazing!

To all of those saying that the OP is unlikely to pass, it's worth being aware that, due to the relative impacts of testosterone and estrogen, transmen tend to pass much more successfully that transwomen, especially if they are tall, like the OP. Which is why I believe neither transmen nor transwomen should use female toilets or changing rooms, as both are usually read as men.

Thank you so much. To be honest I find my views quite representative of many trans people from my generation and older. A lot of the language we used to use is seen as offensive now, but some of the newer terminology I find hard to identify with. But I don't feel able to say that today, as it will inevitable result in abuse and harassment. I saw these changes really begin to kick in when I was in my early 20s, and it the main reason why I don't have much connection to the trans community today.

For example, it has never made sense to me for people to say I was just 'assigned' female at birth, because if that were true and I am simply the same as a man, why would I feel the way I do about my sexual characteristics? I understand the use of that terminology about intersex people, who have historically been assigned a sex and surgically altered to fit it, but it doesn't make sense for trans people. We just used to say 'biological (wo)men' and 'trans (wo)men' when we needed to distinguish between the two, and I still don't understand why that is seen to be offensive by many people today. Surely, by definition, a trans person is not biologically male/female? Obviously, I don't agree with people using that fact to denigrate or harass people, but I don't think the solution to that is to pretend there is no difference at all.

I feel the same with the concept of gender identity, because that is never something I have felt I had. I can't deny that a lot of my interests are more stereotypically associated with men or boys, but the same could be said about a lot of the girls I played with growing up. It seems regressive and sad to me to imply that 'masculine' girls or 'feminine' boys are best explained by a difference in gender identity, rather than the flaws inherent to a system that stereotypes people based on their sex.

I don't want to try and control the language other people use to express themselves, but I don't like how that language is enforced on all of us, when for many it feels inaccurate at best.

If I could go back to childhood and do that, I would in a heartbeat. If it were to apply to me as I am now then I would not. A lot of the medical and surgical treatment I have had is not reversible, and I'd then be left as someone wanting a female body but is read as a man with facial hair, no breasts etc.

I must be honest that I don't have an awful lot of knowledge about research, beyond what has been in the news recently with the Cass review and their ongoing studies.

In terms of my personal views, I think it is most likely to be a combination of different factors, which could also likely vary between individual trans people. However, I hope there will be more research in the future that will help to identify the underlying causes and potentially lead to better treatment options.

I have thought for a while that it would be great if a pharmaceutical company could develop a drug to alleviate the symptoms of sex dysphoria. Like an antidepressant but for people who are distressed by their bodies.

Do you think that would be something most trans people would go for if it was an option?

Thank you, she was a legend then and still is today! Frankly the older she gets, the less patience she has for nonsense, and I know for myself that it isn't a good idea to get in her bad books 😂. She remembers her mum always trying to make her play with dolls, which bored her to tears, whilst her brother would get the sports equipment and toy cars she so desperately wanted. She never wanted to be so restrictive with us growing up, and I remember her being raging when I came home crying because I wasn't allowed to take part in the fun.

I avoid single sex spaces in general, because it is not comfortable as someone who doesn't feel they belong or are welcome in either. The increased provision of single-user toilets and changing rooms has made my life a lot easier. I think they can help relieve the stress many trans people feel in relation to something as simple as needing the toilet, whilst maintaining the privacy of others.

Yes I agree. SSRIs have been life changing for me when I have had episodes of depression. I wish something like that had existed for my sex dysphoria. I think in the past people would have been overjoyed to have access to such a thing, and I think many still would today.

However, I have seen a lot of prominent trans people become very militant in their approach. Any treatment other than medical or social transition is viewed as akin to trying to 'cure' someone's sexuality. I can't say I agree with that. My sexual attraction to women never caused any distress, in and of itself. The only distress related to the bullying and the stigma associated with it. The same is not true of sex dysphoria, it is inherently traumatic. People being understanding and accepting makes life a lot easier, but it doesn't address that. I think any treatment that can help to relieve it, without people having to go through the challenges of medical and surgical intervention, would be a wonderful thing.

However, I am concerned about the way these issues are being treated by the government and media at the moment. As much as I hope that safer treatment options will be discovered, I can't get on board with efforts to withdraw access to medical transition in their absence. Obviously that hasn't occurred yet, and I hope that I am just being overly paranoid. However, I can't deny that I am more fearful for the future than I was just a few years ago.

Do you ever worry that by using the gender neutral toilets and avoiding the men’s, people might be more suspicious of your gender?

No, they have them in most buildings at my university and a lot of people prefer them in general because they provide more privacy. They definitely aren't just used by gender/sex non-conforming people.

Hi OP, JKR is often lauded on here, what are your thoughts on her?

I must be honest that I don't follow her closely, but see her come up a lot in the news. I have just been on her twitter and read the pinned post at the top. In general, I would agree with a lot of what she has said there, but I think the terminology 'trans-identified men' is unnecessary. Referring to people as trans women makes clear their biology without disregarding the way they have chosen to live their lives.

I think there has been some confusion here that because I recognise that I am female and not actually able to actually change that, it means I am indifferent to the language with which I am referred. I do believe in freedom of expression, and don't think people should have to use language that goes against their beliefs based upon my personal feelings. However, it would be a lie to say I am happy being referred to as a 'trans-identified woman'.

In terms of JK Rowling more generally, I dislike what I have seen in the news recently regarding Daniel Radcliffe and Emma Watson. I find it hypocritical for someone to demand freedom of speech, whilst targeting others for expressing their own opinions. I don't like the implication that they owe her an apology, or should not be allowed to disagree with or criticise her simply because of her role in developing their career.

Well said OP, couldn't agree more on all of this. Thanks again for an articulate post.

Referring to people as trans women makes clear their biology without disregarding the way they have chosen to live their lives.

Haven't they found that a large percentage of people don't know what a transwoman is though? And they think it's someone born female. I'm sure someone with a better memory than me will know where the research is.

Yes, I think a survey found that around a third of people thought a trans woman was a biological female who identifies as male. So it is confusing.

And then there's the more philosophical question of whether it's right to essentially shame people into saying something they completely disagree with. Many people completely disagree that a trans woman is any kind of woman.

Full disclosure: I am one of them. I have a massive problem with defining a woman as anything other than an adult human female, because as far as I'm concerned we either define women according to their sex, or according to harmful stereotypes.

And it's a bit of a gateway. By calling trans women "women" and "she/her", we become less able to object to them in women only spaces because "trans women are women".

Weirdly I feel a lot more comfortable referring to the OP as "he", even though (sorry @MAW1993, I don't want to offend you here), his "voice" and the way he expresses himself comes across as unmistakably female.

I don't know whether I have less of a problem calling trans men "he" because then it's the definition of a man that is being changed, rather than the definition of a woman (and to a certain extent I don't much care about that), or whether it's because I generally find it easier to respect the preferred pronouns of trans people who haven't caused any harm or distress to others, which is more likely to be the case with trans men than trans women.

I think you're absolutely right, it is seen as morally wrong to want to "cure" someone of being trans, even though in many cases I'm sure it could alleviate a lot of suffering. I also suspect that big pharma isn't interested in developing a cheap drug to alleviate gender dysphoria, because a lifetime on cross sex hormones and any other medicine needed as a result of surgery is going to be more lucrative for them in the long run.

But I think that if such a drug did exist, it should be the first port of call for people with dysphoria, with transitioning remaining an option for adults who had tried to accept their bodies and been ultimately unable to do so.