I went to the Tavistock as a young person - AMA

[MAW1993]

I attended the Tavistock from 2008 to 2011, beginning when I was about 15. I made this post because I saw the many questions people asked on a previous AMA. Unfortunately, the OP was uncomfortable answering some of them, and I felt there may be a need for an AMA with someone who can be more open.

I agree, it really hurt me to read them say they didn’t feel loveable. That’s such a sad statement. People have all kinds of fluid sexuality these days and I am sure there will be someone out there who is right for OP. I hope your daughter / son will be very happy too 🫂

I'm only speaking for myself here but I'm a bit worried that if we start discussing things amongst ourselves, we will risk turning what has been a unique and beautiful learning experience (at least for me) into a standard back and forth which will eventually degenerate (sorry to be so pessimistic).

The original format of questions being answered solely by the OP (with his personal 'lived-experience insight) was working wonderfully. I'm sure a new thread could be started for those who wish to discuss these issues amongst themselves.
Thanks.

... Having said that, it's not my thread and I appreciate others may well have different views.... So maybe I should keep my thoughts to myself. Sorry.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

This is inappropriate on AMA

Very sorry OP and everyone else here, I would hate to ruin this

Hi @JuliaPN1978 that's fine 🙂

I also do you think that generally your question two, three, four, and five are likely to have been discussed in various of the threads on the feminism board.

Thank you op for your thoughtful reply to my post. I am very sad you had to go through so much pain . Your last comment about why not having to transition would be better says it all really. Everything you say reads as a woman to me, which is why everyone here is kind and supportive, as it is very unlikely a man would come here and speak like this. If there is a way to detransition, the lesbian community would be the place to go.

From what I have read here it would appear that OP is happy and doesn’t want to go back? It’s good to know there are spaces to accept people who want to detransition though

Do feel free to start your own thread, (you'd have to think carefully so as not to be a TAAT) it's not wrong to be wanting to explore these kind of questions but agree with PP that not appropriate in this AMA.

Yes I am sorry for posting that and upsetting people but I don’t know how to get rid of it

I reported my reply and got it removed @JuliaPN1978

Ask MN to delete by reporting your own post. I hope people aren't upset - I'm not - just gently suggesting doing your discussion elsewhere.

Hello again OP. Can you tell us if being seen as a man has given you any advantages…eg higher wages, being listened to, not being sexually harassed by men daily, having your ideas being taken on, and does testosterone give you more strength?

(1) No I haven't. I experienced some limited intimacy as a teenager such as kissing and lying in bed together (whilst clothed). I honestly don't think I will regret it. I think if I did do it, I would regret that.

(2) I knew before doing an AMA here that some people would feel that was the most appropriate way to refer to me. It doesn't have a lot of effect on me in this context, but it would make me feel uncomfortable in my day to day life. Regardless, I don't think it is right to police the language people use in regards to a complex issue.

(3) I'm not sure to be honest with you. Early on I was very determined that no one would ever know because I had experienced a lot of humiliation and wanted normality. However, over time keeping something like that a secret exerts a burden, and I wondered whether people may be more accepting in recent years. However, it still does not feel like something I can do. It is hard to distinguish the degree to which that is caused by my general shame or the assault.

(4) Yes, unfortunately I met several as a teenager when I was still involved in trans spaces. There were quite a lot of young people (both biological boys and girls) who felt very uncomfortable around specific trans women and transvestites who would attend support groups.

We would talk about it amongst ourselves, but we weren't able to say it in the bigger group without being accused of being disrespectful by the people who led the group. I did end up leaving, and later joined a group for young people aged 16 to 25. That was a much better experience, and I didn't meet anyone there who made me feel uncomfortable despite there being many young trans women who attended.

Having said all this, I don't agree with the way that some people characterise all trans women as a monolith. Most that I met were sensitive and vulnerable people simply trying to live their lives. Many had experienced horrendous discrimination and mistreatment, and were nothing but kind and protective of the younger members of the group.

(5) If it is not particularly sensitive then I don't mind whether I see a male or female doctor. If it is intimate then I prefer to see a woman. Mainly because they have the same genitalia as me, but also because I have found female doctors to be more empathetic about trans issues. That isn't a rule though and there have been plenty of exceptions of both sexes. Ultimately, for me the most important is that it is someone who listens, is kind, and engenders trust.

(6) It was very difficult. However, I think it would be very difficult for anyone, regardless of their biological sex or identity.

The staff were wonderful. I didn't initially want to have any kind of examination and the nurse never tried to force it at all. She just started with things that weren't very invasive, and then explained the other exams they could do and why they would be beneficial. Because of her kindness and patience, I did ultimately go ahead with an intimate examination as I was in a lot of pain and was scared it was something serious.

I did feel a lot of shame, but I know that is common in people from all kinds of backgrounds, so it is hard to say the extent to which that was related to my sex dysphoria.

More generally, I have had many incidents in which staff have asked invasive and inappropriate questions. For example, I was asked by a triage nurse whether I used a 'strap on', when presenting with a broken arm.

I also had a bimanual exam performed following a cystoscopy to investigate microscopic haematuria. I wasn't told of the clinician's intentions, he said 'I just need to do one more thing' and then performed the exam. It was in the operating theatre when I was already feeling very exposed. He had also convinced me to get the cystoscopy by explaining it would just be him and one nurse, but when I arrived there were at least 5 people, including students. I think he probably reasoned that I would have refused both investigations and that it was in my best interests, but I found it very upsetting nevertheless.

In terms of being respectful, I think medical professionals should refrain from asking patients anything that is not medically relevant. I also think they should be empathetic whenever an intimate exam is required, and make efforts to preserve people's dignity, such as keeping them covered up as much as possible. I think these principles should apply to all patients, not just trans people.

Thank you so much. I am not looking to detransition, but I am very glad there are welcoming spaces that exist for those who do.

It's quite hard for me to say in terms of the workplace, because I have been seen as a man for all of my adult life. I have read accounts from people who transitioned as adults and did find that to be the case, however.

I do not get sexually harassed by men in my daily life, which I know is sadly often not the case for women. However, I have experienced sexual violence. That said, that has only occurred in a context in which people knew my biological sex.

I think testosterone has increased my strength, particularly my upper body strength. Before beginning my studies I was as a removals worker for 3 years. I think I would have struggled with the heavy lifting otherwise. We did have a woman join the team but she found the removals position too physical and decided to move into customer service. I don't mean to stereotype anyone though, I know there are plenty of women who are very strong.

OP you have touched on something I wanted to ask but thought it was a bit flippant - how would you react to being accused of transphobia by a more "politically minded" person (if you said something innocuous or equated sex with gender, for example, as can happen) - would you feel tempted to have it out or just nod and back down? (Not saying either is right/wrong).

@MAW1993 Thank you for continuing to answer people's questions. You write so well and I am finding your answers very thought provoking.

Many people have speculated that the current "epidemic", for want of a better word, of teenage girls wanting to transition to become men is due to their fear of becoming adult women, in particular for the internet generation who have grown up in a culture of women being harassed online, girls coerced into sending "nudes" which then get circulated at school or even posted on the internet, and children being exposed to violent porn from a young age in which women are exploited and objectified.

I have some sympathy with that theory. I think if I were growing up today I might think that being an adult woman looked absolutely terrifying, and want to opt out of it.

Do you have any feelings similar to that? Do you think your feelings about your female body stem from a desire not to live the way women live or be treated the way women are treated? Or do you think there is a different root cause?

In terms of how I feel, I think it's very unfair. I have always tried to look at people's intentions if they say something that is potentially offensive. Obviously some people are overtly abusive, but many people have good intentions and simply express them clumsily. I can't deny that people can say things that are hurtful or intrusive, but I don't think accusing them of transphobia when there was no malice is helpful for anyone.

When I was young and attended the group in question, none of us really felt able to say anything. I muttered a comment in regards to a transvestite who I didn't like. I can't say it was tactful, but I was a kid. The people in charge of the group banned me from attending a meeting for 2 months. At the time it was the only outlet I had to meet other trans people so it was a big blow. We ended up making our own Skype group. We would say whatever we wanted between ourselves, and warn people who to stay away from.

As an adult, I'm not afraid to be assertive when I feel people's behaviour isn't appropriate, and most certainly if there are kids involved! If I was accused of transphobia or any other kind of phobia for that then I wouldn't give it the time of day. I imagine some might accuse me of transphobia here, because I'm not willing to lie about the fact that I have personally seen predatory behaviour from trans people. However, thinking back on it as an adult I'm pretty disgusted that the sensibilities of creepy adults were prioritised over the discomfort of kids, just because we didn't express that in a polite manner.

@MAW1993 there are some things that you and I would completely disagree about, however I have to say that the treatment you’ve mentioned from medical professionals is really appalling and I’m so sorry you have experienced this. Medical staff are absolutely entitled to hold personal opinions but this should never affect their practice and patient care. Let alone the poor quality and inadequate support/interventions you received as a child. 💐

Do you think that there’s more predatory behaviour amongst trans people than non-trans?

I guess it would be naive to think that there would be no predatory behaviour, as there will be in any group of people… but do you think from your experience that trans people pose more of a risk?

I can't deny that I share your fears that the increased awareness of trans people could lead to vulnerable children seeing transition as a way to relieve their distress, and living to regret it. I also feel that some of the ideas that have been put forward in recent years about gender are regressive. Although some people argue it is all just down to better support and awareness, I think the change in the demographic of children presenting is not adequately explained by that alone and needs exploration. That said, I would never want to be blasé about their distress, or to rubbish their experiences because they are from a different generation than I.

I remember social media starting to come out when I was a teenager. Suddenly everyone had to have a Bebo account, where we would all obsess over how many hearts we got on our profile. People would talk on MSN and make plans for the weekend, and of course the unpopular children were never included. As someone who was bullied a lot in school, it became yet another avenue for exclusion. I can't imagine how difficult it is for children growing up now. I also feel terribly for their parents, who are stuck between trying to protect their children and not wanting their child to be left out by their peers.

I'm not sure it will ever be possible for me to provide a definitive reason for why I am as I am. I can't deny that I experienced misogyny as a child, and sadly I doubt a single girl has over grown up without encountering it to some extent. I am fortunate in terms of my family. My mother always felt very restricted by her parents' ideas surrounding how a girl should behave, and what her interests should be. She would encourage both me and my brother to pursue any interests we had. I remember that my brother loved dance as a child and she would take him to classes. My dad was definitely more 'traditional', and she recently told me that at the time he had said the classes might 'turn him gay'! That said, my dad would always ending up doing as he was told when my mum put her foot down, which she did readily 😂.

I remember sexism being more obvious outside my home. When I was young all the children on my street would play outside together nicely. However, there was one dad who started organising football and cricket tournaments. I wanted to play, as did other girls, but he'd say 'girls don't play football' and leave us out. I know that isn't an extreme example compared to the awful misogyny that some girls and women face, but I do remember it vividly as I was so angry. Slightly off topic, but I thought people would be tickled to know that my mum then organised a sports day (complete with egg and spoon race!) for all the kids on the street. Other parents were invited to run events for us, with the notable exception of that dad.

I would say that I don't think socialisation alone adequately explains my situation. I can remember distress from being very young, and though I know children begin to be socialised from birth, I don't think the developmental maturity matches the kind of thought process you have outlined. I also think it is relevant that spending time as part of the lesbian community, which really felt like a safe haven from stereotypes (both in relation to sex and sexuality), didn't improve my sex dysphoria.

Finally, I don't think it is accurate to say that I thought my life would be easier living as a trans man. Whilst I had a lot of distress about my sex, I got a lot of relief out of being a proudly gender non-conforming lesbian, and the process of meeting similar people and being involved in that community filled me with a lot of hope. However, it didn't have the effect on my ability to accept myself that I had hoped for. In contrast, I tried to suppress the feelings I had regarding my sex due to being fearful of the taboo and stigma associated with it. I know it doesn't seem like such a long time ago, but the attitudes people have today compared to when I was young feel like night and day.