Can I be a feminist and not be fully pro-choice until term?

[Moonfishstar]

As in to think there should be some restrictions on stopping a mother aborting their foetus very close to term if there is no reason other than the mother has decided not to proceed?

I think so. I would say I'm very feminist. On abortion I believe as soon as possible is better but later if necessary. I think I'd support allowing abortion to term because no woman leaves it that late and just changes her mind there will be reasons.

Personally I couldn't abort when I needed to (child from rape) and have faced the consequences of that it was not a good time to have a baby. Luckily i escaped my abuser with time to abort when he was forcing me to keep. I think I couldn't love the child if I'd been forced to keep him, because I walked out that clinic I know despite his conception I chose to keep him so he's mine not his evil fathers and that has got me through.

Are you a Dr who does abortions, who has actual experience in " At about 20ish weeks I believe that's done by dismemberment and then removing the parts" or are you just parroting something you found online?

As an outsider to this debate / just seen the thread / Dr Spartacular you are not answering any question. Why not?

if a foetus is part of a woman’s body and she can choose to do whatever she likes, can she choose to kill it in any fashion she chooses?

I don't know to be honest ... I think people might opt to terminate for some conditions because they are frightened. It doesn't mean they wouldn't be loving parents. I think there are certain conditions I would choose to terminate for. I don't know up until what gestation and am thankful never to have been in the position to have to make such a choice. I have no idea what is right in some situations, but I think it's important to debate and discuss. I don't think avoidance of the debate helps anyone in the long term.

Obviously noone should be aborting an eg 30 week baby who is old enough to be fine with a bit of nicu support. But induction and treating the baby should be allowed if the mothers health, physical or mental, is deemed at risk.

And yet, according to the 2010 RCOG guidelines, 1200+ live births occurred following terminations performed at 20-23 weeks, between the years of 1995-2004, in the West Midlands alone.

You'd think it was obvious! Not to some posters it isn't!

Ok. So how does it magically get out?

It doesn't get out intact in a surgical abortion. Its not a myth. Honestly, look up the methods if you are so confident. Earlier its done by dilating the cervix and using vacuum to erm, suck out the fetus, placenta etc. When it gets a bit bigger, they can't use vacumn so they use scalpels to 'manually remove' it. Otherwise they'd have to dilate the cervix a lot more.

It's why in a TFMR the parents, if the parents want to set/cuddle their baby, this can only be done where labour is induced, not after surgical.

Perfectly ok to have both in mind. I think we have it right in the U.K.

@GrumpyPanda

I disagree. It IS a feminist issue because late-term abortions are vanishingly rare and only happen for exceedingly serious medical reasons.

Well if that's the case, and late-term abortions without serious medical
Issues never happen, why are you so keen on promoting that women should have this right that apparently no woman would ever use, ever?

well said

I cannot get on board with the idea that a woman can do literally anything she likes to a full term baby as it is part of her body. I just cannot. And I know this almost never happens but we should be able to talk about hypotheticals and philosophical positions. I do not believe that to be a feminist I have to be ok with the theoretical possibility of a women killing a baby during birth.

Surely late term abortions can't be legal unless the foetus has serious health issues? You have to give birth anyway if you have a late term abortion so it's not 'forced birth'. Your only option is to give birth at that point. Might as well wait a little while longer and deliver a healthy baby that can be adopted.

I agree with the current legal limit in the UK because a foetus can survive outside the womb by that point. You can be a feminist and be against aborting a healthy full term baby.

@Babyboomtastic

It doesn't get out intact in a surgical abortion. Its not a myth. Honestly, look up the methods if you are so confident.

Indeed, but I don't know why @DrSpartacular cares? It makes no sense if you believe a foetus is simply part of a woman's body. If she genuinely thought that, deep down, she wouldn't be squeamish about saying so!

Exactly, we have to be able to consider these things without a knee-jerk and robotic "as soon as possible, as late as necessary" response that allows for absolutely no nuance and requires that this is held unquestioningly on pain of being called misogynistic and no different to extreme pro-lifers! It's seriously cultish actually!

This. In the US research shows that more than four in ten (45%) abortions occurred by six weeks of gestation, a third (36%) occurred between seven and nine weeks, and 13% at 10-13 weeks. Just 7% of abortions occurred after the first trimester and I think something like 1% of those were after 21 weeks. I think it is safe to assume that the 1% who do seek a termination after 21 weeks have some fairly extreme medical circumstances that are driving them and are acting with their doctor's advice.

Women are generally not trying to murder their full term fetuses so you really don't need to worry about enacting legislation to stop that. Since that legislation may be used to stop a woman making a deeply difficult medical choice.

"Surely late term abortions can't be legal unless the foetus has serious health issues?"

@Somanystupidpeople would you consider cleft palate or club foot to be serious health issues?

I find it very interesting, the range of assumptions made about the reality of abortion in the UK, on this thread.

The RCOG guidelines on TFMR are worth a read, for those interested in the actual legal position currently held in this country:

www.rcog.org.uk/media/21lfvl0e/terminationpregnancyreport18may2010.pdf

I'm very pro-choice, but I don't support an abortion of an otherwise healthy baby after the point where you could give birth naturally and have them survive. I don't think that's an unpopular view.

I agree, which is why I'm surprised that so many posters seem to want to heap opprobrium onto anyone who doesn't hold the most extreme of extreme views on choice. It's a kind of fundamentalism that's so extreme, I don't think i can draw a parallel to apart from genuine cults.

Let's take this scenario. You discover your 13yo DD has been groomed and raped. Shes been in denial... so the pregnancy is discovered at 25 weeks.

Would you support her getting an abortion, if it had been legal?

O

@Pallisers

Women are generally not trying to murder their full term fetuses so you really don't need to worry about enacting legislation to stop that. Since that legislation may be used to stop a woman making a deeply difficult medical choice.

Of course the vast majority of women aren't "murdering" their full-term foetuses. We already have legislation (and practice in Canada) that prevents it, so obviously I'm not worried about it...I just don't support the view that there should be completely unfettered rights regarding abortion.

@Babyboomtastic scalpels and forceps are very different instruments.

Probably yes, but if it was 40 weeks, probably not.

I was pro choice, until I had an abortion a few years ago. I can’t believe women would even advocate for late term abortion on the basis of “choice”. I gave birth to my son 6 weeks ago and this has just further cemented me in the pro life camp. I don’t consider myself to be a feminist anymore either.

Yes, but it's still 'removed in fragments with forceps'. How does this magically happen? Does it spontaneously break apart? Is it dismemberment if its woth a scalpel but not if it is broken into pieces with forceps?

And if it isn't anything worth protecting, why are you bothered?

We are all grown ups here. It's horrible, but we should be able to talk about the nitty gritty.