BDSM & Feminism... Just curious

[ShamrockClover]

What is your view on women taking a submissive role in BDSM?
Can a woman be a feminist whilst enjoy this type of sexual dynamic or do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?
Is it hypocritical?

Personally, I feel a woman can be both. But I'm genuinely curious to see others opinions on this topic.

Opinions or are you interested in feminist writing on the subject as well?
But I think most people are hypocritical.
If you believe in feminist ideas and you work towards feminist goals, that is surely more relevant.

the apologists for this sort of thing always seem to argue that they're only submissive in the bedroom, the rest of the time they are a scary boss-woman, and surely feminism means women get to choose to do what they want, plus they get great orgasms

but I think that feminism means taking a broader view- does this behaviour/choice on the whole make things better or worse for women and girls on the whole? The popularisation of BDSM (partly through that bloody book) has been a great tool allowing men to persuade women to 'consent' to dangerous and abusive practices

see also, prostitution

@SuperLoudPoppingAction

If you believe in feminist ideas and you work towards feminist goals, that is surely more relevant.

I don't disagree. But do you think doing these things then crawling around on a man's leash (extreme example 😂) is contradictory? That is what I'm getting at.

It honestly doesn't matter what I think.
I wasn't assuming heterosexual bdsm until you clarified either.
But I'm happy to link feminist writing if you're genuinely interested.

The purpose of my thread is wondering what other people think, which is more engaging and varied than simply reading an article. Of course you don't have to share your views though.
Fair point, I should have clarified heterosexual couples. I just assumed people would think that was obvious with this post being about feminism too. I don't think a lesbian couple who engage in BDSM could be accused of being anti feminist or propping up patriarchal stereotypes in the same way as a straight couple, considering there is no man involved.
Send the links, thanks.

Given centuries of subjugation, I don't believe a woman can be feminist and submissive. It just fulfills stereotypes. I am not very familiar with the philosophy of BDSM. however, as I've never understood why people would want to hurt each other or be hurt!

I'm more concerned about the person - mostly, a man - who wants to cause harm to their partner during sex.

Are you asking if a woman can enjoy being submissive in the bedroom, in a specific context, with a specifically selected person/people (which she is actually in control of) - but not want misogyny and sexism to control every aspect of her life?

If so - of course she can.

she may enjoy it, yes, but how does that further the downfall of patriarchy?

Alot of 'submissives' (m&f) top from the bottom & are in control. It's an innate need within them. As long as it's consensual, adults, safe and sane then yes, it's fine and I agree with @viridiano

There was quite a lot of chat within lesbian communities about sadomadochism because a)lots of lesbian feminist ethics chat in general but also b) there were things like Samois and On Our Backs actively sharing experiences of s/m within lesbian circles.
I don't think that within many feminist conversations we see lesbian behaviours as beyond feminist analysis.

Anyway, there is this essay which used to be easy to link to called "it's not about condemnation" by Audre Lorde.

https://eddierockerz.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/a-burst-of-light-and-other-essays-pdfdrive-.pdf
You can grab it from here - it's the first essay - or have a look for the book "a burst of light".

Also "against sadomadochism" from 1982

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9D4EAQAAIAAJ&q=against+sadomasochism&dq=against+sadomasochism&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiOpI_OtZeEAxVfzgIHHVGzDagQ6AF6BAgIEAM#against%20sadomasochism

I studied this last year in a feminism module and there are compelling arguements for both sides. What does stand out for me is the arguement that in BDSM consent is so clear and defined by both the sub and the dom that it can be a very healthy form of sex. And if boundaries are being pushed or things done or said, that have not been pre agreed then it is not BDSM.

From memory The Kinky Collective was good at explaining the concepts and concerns raised by people questioning whether BDSM could be feminist. And I think that article is public. I can't remember the other sources but that one stuck in my memory because of the name.

@Precipice I think the sadism and masochism is only one aspect of these types of sexual relationships, and not something all engage in. For example, a couple might enjoy bondage and humiliation but not necessarily like being whipped or spanked etc. and vice versa.

@ShamrockClover what books do you recommend for this subject ?

?

as your researching the subject your op is about, have you read any suitable textbooks or academic papers etc that you would recommend on the topic ?

Then we can also question what is it about humiliating their partner and being cruel to them that's getting them off. Still causing harm, just not physically. And why the bondage? To make it harder for them to pull away and get the other person to stop?

Nothing wrong as a sexual kink in the bedroom but I wouldn't associate it with feminism if it was a 24/7 lifestyle choice.

What is the view on women taking a dominant role in bdsm?

I don’t think the idea is to cause harm at all

I do not believe all these women are sexually liberated.

I believe the majority do it out of fear of losing their relationship, or wanting to seem oh so cool, and fun and interesting.

The current popularisation of bdsm has led men to think they do not need consent. I have had my throat grabbed, been slapped, spat on etc all by seemingly 'normal' men.

And I know people will say 'that's not bdsm' blah blah, tell them that. I'm not the one going around thinking this is okay because of a goddam shit book.

Standing on the parapet here: I don't believe the fetishisation of female submission can be feminist, no. The whole thing is built around clear symbols of subjugation and slavery. Further, I suspect that subs of both sexes have some weird and, ultimately, unhealthy hangups around sexuality and the sex act.

I've listened to hours and hours of BDSM fans telling me it's really an inverse power relationship, consent, safewords, yadda yadda. My view hasn't altered.

One of my family members has a couple of good friends who go everywhere with him leading her by her chain on a collar. I've tried to treat them just like any other mutual friends; I'm aware she's very successful in her career and is an interesting character. But I find it despicable for all that it represents, and now I avoid them because otherwise I'd have to tell them how I feel!

I would not connect it with feminism, which is interested in equality rather than domination/submission.

Same here, @stormy4319trevor @CorBlimeyGuvna.