BDSM & Feminism... Just curious

[ShamrockClover]

What is your view on women taking a submissive role in BDSM?
Can a woman be a feminist whilst enjoy this type of sexual dynamic or do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?
Is it hypocritical?

Personally, I feel a woman can be both. But I'm genuinely curious to see others opinions on this topic.

BDSM and abuse are two very distinct and different things. Sadly they are often conflated.

A submissive actively chooses to submit. That submission doesn't have to be sexual - it can be the act of service they crave. The Dominant, on the other hand, is supposed to be responsible and put the welfare of the submissive at the core of their activities. When that doesn't happen, we need to call it what it is. Abuse.

I'm bi, & read Autostraddle sometimes, & one of the things that puts me off them is the glut of articles on bdsm. Ok, some, fine, but there's just so many. The comments section can be interesting. One I read that stuck w me was a woman saying that she didn't really like a certain bdsm act but did it occasionally as a treat for her gf, eg on her bday, but it was a struggle. It made me feel rather icky : she was nominally the 'dominant' but in actual fact being pressured by the 'submissive'. The coercion can work both ways. Another comment said that a dominant should push soft but not hard boundaries. Any boundary pushing sounds a bit dodgy, I suppose it can be OK if the 'sub' agrees..

I think that sexuality is complex and it's down to the individual how they perceive it. I'm not going to tell a woman what to think or that she's a bad feminist because of her sexual behaviour. As long as abuse isn't involved, whatever flicks your switch.

Another thing that concerns me about it is : do some people do it as a form of self-harm? Where do you draw the line if you enjoy physical and/or mental pain? Often people on Autostraddle talk about reframing abusive childhoods in a safe way, but the fact they link it to abuse still feels worrying.. I thinks it's far better when this element isn't a factor.

It's a big topic, & nuance is needed - I think fir example if someone enjoys the physical sensation of a slap, say, and it's not pain but pleasure, then I think that's OK. But I think it gets into murkier territory when  the mental element of domination/submission is involved. If someone enjoys mental pain & humiliation, I do struggle to see how that can be healthy. I  also read an ama w a dominatrix here once, & she said she saw herself as in ultimate control, despite the 'sub holds ultimate power' discourse. She said subs often try & push their boundaries or get carried away w excitement etc & so she saw herself as having ultimate responsibility if things went wrong. I do think this sounds more convincing than the insistence that the sub is in total control. 

I also think there needs to be a limit on acceptable kinks. Recently I started a thread here on the hideous reddit dykeconversion, which promotes 'orientation play', lesbians violating their sexual orientation by having sex w men. Mostly it's misogynistic men fantasising about corrective rape, & quite a few masquerading as women who want to convert or help others convert (ugh), plus a few bi women creepily sharing this sadism to lesbians, but there are a few heartbreaking posts from lesbians saying they get an 'adrenaline high' from being violated, and homophobic abuse has made them feel this is 'all they're good for'. This is self-harm, and can never be OK. Similarly, I don't think being drugged during sex, even if you want it, is ever OK. How do you know the other person will do what they're partner wants while they're asleep?

Sorry, don't know what happened up there w one bit being highlighted.
One more thing- what is CNC? I heard this & freeuse mentioned once here as examples of unacceptable kinks. I thought CNC meant pretending you don't want something when both you & your partner know you do. I think that's OK as long as it's clear, but I think I read a Guardian article where it was described as covering a situation where one person wants to have sex while drugged. I don't think that's ever ok, & not just bc vile men like Dominique Pelicot use it as an excuse.
As for freeuse, is that one person having sex even when they don't feel like it, bc their partner wants it? But if it's their kink, then they do want it in some way? Confusing. That does sound liable to abuse.

@AliasGrace47 You raise a lot of good points.

If you're able to use the acronym CNC, then I feel it likely you know what it stands for - Consensual Non-consent. In a CNC scenario the dominant, within pre-agreed boundaries, doesn't need to seek consent for every activity. However, as I hinted at earlier, CNC doesn't give carte blanche to do what you want. This all needs to be grounded with responsibility.

The pornification of society, including BDSM, is all about breaking down responsibility, breaking the link between our consumption and others suffering. In a properly functioning BDSM relationship, it isn't consent that's key, it's responsibility - whether towards the sub, the Domme, or other members of society. If both parties are responsible, then consent should happen naturally.

Of your questions, I or any one else could answer them in a long post, but we would be denying you the pleasure of learning, of struggling to balance juxtapositions. I feel the best suggestion would be to start using the term "psychology" in your searches. Read the blogs of people who live the lifestyle, question their choices, and ask "why?". Please, however, put the porn down. It doesn't help.

I, for one, would love to read your thoughts on CNC or free use, how it can fit within feminism. What steps and boundaries would need to be taken to make it as safe as possible? Do we have the right (or responsibility) to dictate what others can think or feel?

Oh, and of intoxication, to be legal the person needs to be able to give active consent at any point. An intoxicated person can't do that because their functioning is too badly compromised. It's always immoral and wrong.

I haven’t read up on this but a couple of things strikes me quite strongly-
it all feels a bit male gaze, a variety of roles for the woman but often predicated around being a male fantasy.
we don’t acquire our desires in isolation. We are programmed from experience. Things we see, or do or read. In a patriarchal society that is focused on male desire so we develop around that focus.

(I was groomed as a teenager, given BDSM stuff. It’s always there now. I never got the chance to work out what I would have liked. That became my model. Now, I’ve never explored it in any depth. My relationships haven’t been like that. But it’s always there in the background.)

@SensibleSigma

"we don’t acquire our desires in isolation. We are programmed from experience. Things we see, or do or read. In a patriarchal society that is focused on male desire so we develop around that focus."

I don't feel I can argue with your point of view, however, I feel you are missing something important. You have the right, at any time, to challange what you have been taught - be that about religion, society or even your sexuality. I personally feel it is a responsibility to challenge my learning, to broaden it and refine it.

In this context, patriarchy or matriarchy can be abusive. The abuse is to deny you your right and responsibility to challenge their orthodoxy. They don't want you questioning their view because it could undermine their power, their authority. They have something they don't want to lose, so they'll do whatever it takes to keep it.

That's where studying the theory of BDSM can be interesting. You begin to look at power structures and rights vs responsibilities. Answering the question of the difference between power and abuse can be eye-opening.

"it all feels a bit male gaze, a variety of roles for the woman but often predicated around being a male fantasy."

May I ask you to question why you feel this to be the case? Where did you learn this? Who taught you it, and what was their motivation? Why can't it be something that you explore? Why do you feel it's only a male fantasy to have the ability to wield power?

Presuming you have a partner, have you ever discussed the idea of a female led relationship? Does the idea of your partner willingly giving you a foot massage, painting your toe nails, [insert act of service here] appeal to you? There's a Cleopatra within all of us wanting to escape. What if they love the idea, but are too frightened to ask?

That, ultimately, is what D/s is all about. I think of the couples I grew up watching, and many of them, the role models I was exposed to had a strong, dominant woman at the centre of them.

Much of this probably makes you feel frightened and uncomfortable. Growth is uncomfortable, but ultimately worthwhile.

Old joke ‐ Masochist says 'Hit me, hit me' Sadist says 'No'.
Sadists don't need masochists, they need real pain and fear - the look when there's the realisation the safe word won't work. It's not a dyad. It's not a game.
It's like MAPs trying to normalise dancing on the edge of the abyss.

I don’t disagree yet until we challenge it that’s where we are.

I grew up in a family where DF waited hand foot and finger on my narcissistic mum.

What I see in wide society - not in feminism groups, or lesbian groups as that’s not where I am- on the street, TV- reflects male gaze.

And those of us who just get on with life, not necessarily having the opportunity to unpick and rebuild from the ground up, will fall into those patterns.

So yes, women who have studied and done therapy will probably be able to make active choices in these areas and be able to declare their sexuality is entirely independent of society’s expectations and that they wear a collar and chain as a feminist choice.
Most of us will remain influenced by our context and be less able to make such a confident declaration.

Why are you so 'curious'?

what a lot of self indulgent nonsense
it may have already been said but a choice is not a feminist choice just because a woman makes it
when women say they have rape fantasies, when they tie themselves in knots explaining why being submissive is actually very empowering, when they talk about a kink called 'CNC'...
this leads DIRECTLY to 80+ men in France raping an unconscious woman and claiming to believe she consented
explain to me now, how BDSM is feminist

if you cannot see the danger in this, perhaps you've never had to explain to a woman that passing out when your boyfriend strangles you during sex is not normal or safe

Dissed, yes I do know that's what it stands for, & that's the context I've seen it used on here. But the first time I saw it used was in the Guardian, in the context of drugging, I see that was probs a misapplication.
I don't think the men in the Pelicot trial or any similar one should be able to use 'I thought she wanted it.' as an acceptable defence. There can be no meaningful consent in that scenario. I'm glad you agree.
Free use sounds v suspect if the person is enjoying being violated, as w so-called orientation play. If they're just happy to please their partner, even if not specially horny themselves, I suppose it's ok. It seems ripe for abuse though. I think people who do this stuff should be v strong mentally, as the stakes are much higher if they start getting pushes to do stuff they don't want.
I'm interested in what makes people live lifestyles I woukd never wish to do. I don't need to 'put the porn down', I've never watched any!
I'm happily vanilla w no wish to change, . I do get frustrated w the tone Autostraddle takes, as everything seems to revolve around top/bottom discourse & some flavour of d/s. There's little affirmation that it's fine to not be into it & have no wish to try.
It's interesting psychologically, but I hope the majority of people involved are v clear on boundaries. I do wonder if men or women feed the most common image of a woman being dominated. I read on here once that there aren't enough dominant males for the amount of submissive females. But then so much porn revolves around women being dominated & humiliated, and men are the biggest consumer if that. But then there's people here who say men try things like choking bc they think women will like it, from what they've seen in porn. So us porn pushing the dominant man narrative on society? There's obvs a demand for it, but maybe if things were different, people wouldn't need to frame everything so much in terms of power & domination. I get some like to, but there need to be other narratives

I agree with this. I think that even when it is the woman's preference and not just just capitulation to male demands or trying to be the cool girl, it's probably rooted in the need to be punished for one's sexuality and to have somebody else take control to eliminate the anxiety around that.
I think it's healthier to explore those feelings in therapy rather than act out sub fantasies.

Yes, XChrome, I don't know if it's innate for some men & women, maybe, but it does feel often that people are reinforcing trauma in a different way, which maybe could be worked through.
But I'm not sure if trauma can always be worked through enough.. I've been reading Dorothy Allison's Bastard Out Of Carolina, which is a great book but v upsetting : one of its main threads is the sexual & physical abuse of the narrator Bone from the age of 4 by her stepfather. The novel doesn't shy away from showing that Bone becomes masochistic as a way to get some sort of enjoyment to survive the abuse. Bone is essentially Dorothy Allison, & she's been quite combative as an adult, understandably, about being assumed to be only into BDSM because of the abuse, with feminists trying to fit her into a narrative. She has later acknowledged that she is probably masochistic because of the abuse, but says that because it was ingrained so young, it's impossible for her to be aroused any other way, so it's better for her, and people like her, to explore that in a safe environment, as a fantasy, rather than trying to act it out in everyday life with violent partners.
I feel uncomfortable with that, but if survivors believe there's truly no other way, then controlled exploration is probably best. Similarly to other things, if they go underground because of stigma, it would probs just mean it was practised dangerously. But embracing bdsm shouldn't be seen as the first solution : Allison got incest counselling very late. If she had had it earlier, or better still, been saved from the abuse, it might have been different.

I still feel really strongly that certain things like choking should be off limits, or at least severely warned against. My new uni recently posted on the half-joking Overheard Here social media, 'I've been with men who love their mum and hate their mum, either way you're getting choked.' I hope it was made up- truly hilarious 😡

It's role play, it's not real. In reality, the sub always has control via the safe word. If the safe word isn't abided by, that's abuse.

This reminds me of a thread I read on here recently where a poster was being physically and possibly sexually abused by her husband. She was having an affair involving BDSM, it seemed because she had control there and when she said stop things actually stopped. They both hit her so hard that she was marked by both of them. It was all very sad and messed up.

I think any role play where a man gets to hurt a woman - even if says she wants it and enjoys it - isn't to the benefit of women. So to me it doesn't fit in with my idea of feminism.

I agree with all of this.
Did you ever see the film version of Bastard out of Carolina? It's hard to watch, but well done.

XChrome, no, I've heard it's good. I know there's only 2 abuse scenes, I want to watch the rest. It feels really uncomfortable that Jenna Malone (Bone) had to act those scenes though- unless a body double was used?
Sorry for the derail.

Yeah, I seem to recall there are rules about doubles being used when minors are involved. This also applies in any violent scene or verbally abusive scene.

That's good- yes, I remember reading Linda Blair had that for the Exorcist, and that was in the 70s. You never know with Hollywood though..

I used to naively think that BDSM was a niche "hobby" for like-minded people who want to spice up their bedroom lives. But porn has it normalized to teenagers which is very very worrying.

I think BDSM, as the concepts the acronym stands for, is bad. Rape isn't about the act, it's about how it makes people think about their selves. It doesn't matter whether it's supposedly consensual. That being said, this is from my experience with a lot of others assuming they had consent, when I was unable to consent.

I reverse and contradict my "programming", in the BDSM fiction I write in private, with women telling men how to be. It usually leads to the men having very different behavior. It takes longer for the women I've made up to get to being abusive, but eventually whoever has totalitarian-like control and power can be abusive easily.

I believe ongoing, informed consent, with sensitivity, is important to any sort of interaction with so much exchange. There are so many little details I would talk about. I don't really like to focus on power... I like to be energetic and lively, and dance in the sunny fields in my sheer maxi skirt. I get easily addicted to certain masochistic desires, and that's not consent.

Sometimes when I think I've been poisoned - by a politician or a really toxic person - I go to a made up place in my mind, where my body is softly restrained. Ironically, I cannot inflict pain upon my body in such a state. It's a big pause button, basically. There is no "dominant", just a caregiver who answers questions. That's the closest thing to consensual bondage I can find.

@Alexa97 said;

Rape isn't about the act, it's about how it makes people think about their selves.

Ummm.... what?