BDSM & Feminism... Just curious

[ShamrockClover]

What is your view on women taking a submissive role in BDSM?
Can a woman be a feminist whilst enjoy this type of sexual dynamic or do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?
Is it hypocritical?

Personally, I feel a woman can be both. But I'm genuinely curious to see others opinions on this topic.

ha! no certainly wouldn’t characterise it as an expression of feminism

I didn't say I was researching it particularly. I have had a Google and read a few articles to see it from both sides but I was more interested in seeing what other women's views were in real time. I can't exactly have a discussion with an article.

Hi, I ask this in ignorance and not as someone into BDSM really. When I have had women who want to be very submissive, they are often very particular about what exactly, i.e. "now you are in charge, do exactly as I tell you".
I often wonder if many women are keen on being on bottom as they would feel uncomfortable and unsexy just saying what they want.
But, I am likely completely wrong.

That’s an interesting point! I do wonder if some of it is permission to relax and enjoy – after all, is the person doing the directing who is putting all the effort in. Isn’t that the theory about all the high-flying executives who go to dominatrixes – they just want a break?

The submissive actually has complete control. Or should do.

I wish I could organise my thoughts on this. Yes I believe a powerful boss bitch, as a pp put it, should be able to plod around in a collar and lead if that's what she wants.

My unease comes more from the 24/7 lifestyle. Where Women are expected to serve a man at all times and often be sexually and physically punished for failing to do so.
I also know a few of these situations where the man/Dom has left, died or become seriously ill and the woman, having been a complete submissive for many years, doesn't actually know how to cope alone.

well, that's the exact same situation many widows in traditional marriages find themselves in- not knowing how to pay the electricity, or how much money they have, or where the stopcock is

so I think that tells you all you need to know really

it's such a fucking luxury belief, come back to me about 'subs are really in control' when you've talked to women who have regained consciousness on the floor and told them this is not a normal sexual behaviour

its a bit like the lines we have around dangerous drugs- or other dangerous behaviour. Yes, maybe, there are a few people that can use heroin safely. But most people can't so for their sake we outlaw it, and those few special people just have to be deprived for the sake of the greater good.

And that's before we consider the wider impact of men thinking it's normal or OK to get off on degrading, hurting, humiliating and restraining women.

No. Fuck that shit.

@newtlover I'm inclined to agree that it's risky behaviour which may get out of control, and that it perpetuates all too familiar abusive behaviour. I suppose one issue is that people are entitled to a private life, autonomy and choice, so another part of me thinks it's nobody's business in a consensual arrangement. Where I feel quite clear is that it has no relation to feminism, whish seeks to break down stereotypes, the imbalance of power and amplify the voices of those marginalised and oppressed.

“But do you think doing these things then crawling around on a man's leash (extreme example 😂) is contradictory? That is what I'm getting at”

It is contradictory but I think the novel 1984 covered something about having two contradictory ideas in your head at the same time and being ok. It’s called ‘double think’ ie War is peace’ etc. So yeah, providing you actively engage in Orwellian double think, these two activities are totally fine.

@newtlover, I am out of my depth in this conversation. As a man, I find being utterly dominant far less fun. I have done it many times though as it is what she really wanted.

no one should be doing what they don't want to do sexually
trust your instincts

hmm or people being multi-faceted and different roles and behaviours being context dependent

It's fine.
Providing there us two-way respect, pretty much any kink is fine.

And that is the paradox. It is sometimes the submissive that is actually dictating the way things should go.

Ooh this is a thorny topic for feminists, and easy to see why (as mentioned plenty of writers on the topic) I think a lot of women may not have an in-depth knowledge of BDSM a and some of the core principles. I do have some knowledge of this, which is not to say I agree with it from a feminist point of view btw.
One of the key elements in those relationships is the agreement between both parties. No agreement, no BDSM. The pair go through a courting period, intended to explore desires, boundaries, compatibility, and other essential criteria. They may then decide to progress, at which point there’s a formal agreement, which either may ask for review, and it’s expected that both will adhere to it. There’s more going forward, but that’s basic principles.

lit is quite bureaucratic! But this is for everyone’s safety. In many ways, that process is more honest and in depth than other relationships. If someone wants to role play etc. without any of the forementioned, they’re kinksters, and possibly unaware of all the potential for things going wrong, or the power dynamic being exploited.
in theory, I think BDSM relationships have potential for a successful and enriching partnership, but few are prepared to put the solid effort into doing it well.

Understandably, as feminists we see all the pitfalls and replication of patriarchal control etc. so it’s forbidden territory, but I think it’s a viable option for very mature minded and compatible couples if they so wish.

Men cause men’s behaviour. Misogyny and sexism upholds patriarchy.

Women’s sexual preferences does neither.

There’s nothing feminist about letting a man beat the shit out of you because it gets his dick hard.

I think BDSM sex doesn’t typically involve anyone beating the shit out of anyone else. And presumably women who partake (in either dominant or submissive roles) do so because they enjoy it

Can a woman be a feminist whilst enjoy this type of sexual dynamic or do you believe the two are mutually exclusive?

I'd argue that any restrictions on what a woman does consensually and enthusiastically in the bedroom is against the principles of feminism.

Saying to a woman "you can't be a feminist if you partake in this or that consensual sexual practice" isn't compatible with feminism in my opinion.

am I the only one astonished how far this thread has gone wiht everyone assuming the woman is the submissive? Except for one or two posts that were largely ignored.
let me try it from first principles (presumably some of the academic views and articles mentioned do it much better, but very far from my field and I haven’t read them)
I quite like baking and sewing. These are traditional female activities. It does not make me less feminist to enjoy these.
sex is a little different with Millenia of male dominance and exploitation of women. However, I think some/many women genuinely enjoy bdsm done right with consent. This is completely different from having the shit beaten out of you as someone eloquently put it. Based on the fairly soft romance literature I’ve read, many women enjoy it at least a little bit. Is this societal expectations or innate? It’s so widespread that I’d say these women genuinely enjoy it and it is not counter to being feminist. Be comfortable in your sexual desires ladies, as long as they don’t harm others. (Which does not refer to ‘harm’ with consent)

BDSM will frequently be male dominant/female submissive because patriarchy etc. but that doesn’t mean some women don’t enjoy the experience. As mentioned previously, there’s a world of difference between the full BDSM relationship and a bit of role play and/or some sado-masochistic practices.

Anyone, male or female, can enjoy exploring sexual activities that stretch into fantasy or experimentation where some degree of power is given away/taken.
Doesn’t even need to be bedroom activities, some get a thrill from e.g. being given tasks or instructions to complete with the understanding there will be consequences if not satisfactory.

Feminism grants us the ability to understand the dangers, background, and need for boundary setting but shouldn’t preclude enjoying adult play between consenting adults. If it goes beyond erotic pleasure and becomes a problem, stopping should be respected and if not, then it’s time to revisit relationship dynamics.

Just to be clear, as a feminist, I’m not advocating for this lifestyle, just sharing some knowledge.

That would give me the rage, @Garlickit , a woman being led on a chain. I don’t want children, or anyone, seeing that and thinking it’s OK, you can do that to women.

She may enjoy it, but she’s adding her own little drip to the flood of porn that’s making life dangerous for women.

.. which I suppose brings us back to sex fetishes being fine in privacy, but not in public. If only male cross-dressers had kept their hobby at home instead of claiming they really are women …

god yes, imagine trying to explain THAT to your child
such arrogance