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Feminism: chat

Why are so many minimum wage/low paid jobs done by women?

145 replies

LorlieS · 14/01/2024 20:45

Why is this still "the norm?"

OP posts:
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Musomama1 · 16/01/2024 14:22

JesusMaryAndJosephAndTheWeeDon · 16/01/2024 10:13

There absolutely is data on this, hence gender pay gap reporting.

Men do different unskilled/low skilled work to women and the jobs men pick get paid more highly. The campaign now is not just about equal pay for the same job, it is equal pay for work of equal value.

The minimum wage is helping to stop women's work from getting left behind in terms of pay but it is still an issue.

Why is a bin man paid more than a cleaner working the same hours? Why did warehouse staff at a supermarket get paid more than shop floor staff?

Then there are the barriers to women moving into men's jobs....

I suggest reading invisible women and signing up for Caroline Criado-Perez's mailing list to get you really angry about the barriers still facing women.

The bin man / cleaner etc bit is already raising my hackles!

Re low skilled labouring jobs though being more highly paid, is that because there is more money in this industry?

Yes I agree traditional women's work such as caregiving is undervalued, but that goes all the way to traditional women's work in the home - and that's when things really get complicated!

TheCircusOfLife · 16/01/2024 14:42

We can't ignore the biological differences between the average man vs woman. For example, women are generally more caring/nurturing so are more likely to choose those types of roles because they enjoy that type of work: it is no coincidence that teaching, nursing, caring, child minding etc. are all female dominated jobs.
Meanwhile, men are generally more interested in STEM subjects which will invariably have higher wages as the majority of jobs in this field require higher level qualifications. ie Physics Degree etc.
When we take into account the bodily differences between the sexes, it is another reason as to why women earn less overall. Many women won't work physically taxing jobs because many of us can't and simply wouldn't like to. I personally wouldn't want to be lugging bricks up a set of scaffolding in zero degrees.
The fact the women's careers are often affected by having children due to maternity leave and then needing/wanting to work part time hours makes a difference to the figures too.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule, you might see a male carer just like you might see a female car mechanic but they are rare for a reason.
There were a handful of girls in my Chemistry at Uni. The majority of my closest female friends went into typically female professions, a nursery nurse, a teaching assistant etc. I earned more than them as a result. Really it all boils down to individual choices.

Hollyhocksarenotmessy · 16/01/2024 14:57

Choices are not made in a vacuum though.

alltootired · 16/01/2024 15:07

Women are not naturally more caring.
I started work in a male dominated industry. It was horrific. I ended up moving to a female dominated sector and work got a lot better, although my pay is lower than it would have been.
I am in my fifties. Male dominated industries when I was young were often bastions of sexism.

alltootired · 16/01/2024 15:09

@TheCircusOfLife Girls in Scotland are far more likely to study STEM subjects as they do not specialise so early at school.

LorlieS · 16/01/2024 18:12

@TheCircusOfLife What on earth do STEM subjects have to do with "the biological differences between men and women"?!!
Also, my husband would make a far better SAHP than I ever would! He would love to be a SAHD whereas I could think of nothing worse than being a SAHM to our toddler. I would definitely say he is a "better" dad than I am a mum!

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TheCircusOfLife · 16/01/2024 19:03

@LorlieS The biological differences between men and women are not only the visible ones. Male and female brains are different in the way they work and analyse things. Oestrogen affects the brain and behaviour in a totally different way to how testosterone affects the male brain and behaviour. There have been multiple studies on this; such research is most definitely the best scientific explanation as to why men are generally more attracted to STEM subjects in comparison to women.
When my son was doing A Level Physics, Maths & Chemistry I distinctly remember that there were only 2 Asian girls in his classes of 20 or so. When my niece was doing her A Level English, Psychology and Sociology there were only a handful of boys in her classes. Whilst these examples (and my own experiences doing Chemistry as one of a few girls) are anecdotal, they do support the proven fact of the sexes favouring different things as supported by numerous studies of the brain.
Regarding the relationship dynamic you have with your husband that's great if that works for you. That doesn't negate from the fact that the overwhelming majority of SAHP are women. I can honestly say only one of my friends was genuinely happy to go back to work after maternity leave, because she has an interesting career and enjoys her job. The rest were either racked with "mum guilt" (partners wages not permitting them to stay home like they would have liked) or decided not to return at all (having partners that could financially support that decision)
Of course there are exceptions to every rule as I mentioned previously.

TheCircusOfLife · 16/01/2024 19:09

@alltootired That's great news, but it is still not at the same level as boys choosing to going into STEM.

Shoppingfiend · 16/01/2024 19:09

I wonder if women choose jobs where there are people as they are more likely to want to socialise and chat. Men do more solo jobs like drivers, painters, plumbers, women more social, shop assistant, nurse, teacher.
That doesn't explain why the latter ones are lower paid.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 16/01/2024 19:11

Because if they were ordinarily done by Men, they'd pay double the wages.

Shoppingfiend · 16/01/2024 19:12

Are girls deciding their careers when teens and their oestrogen levels are high, so caring appeals.
But they should be educated about careers and pay before they decide.

ChateauMargaux · 16/01/2024 19:34

@TheCircusOfLife ... so we choose to be paid less for the same work, we choose not be promoted...

While there are examples of jobs that are physically easier for men.. (brick laying as yiu cited), no one needs male muscles to be a physicist, a city lawyer, a banker or indeed an estate agent which has tge biggest gender oay gao in the US.

Girls outperform boys in physics at gcse and A level.. I stumbled across an amazing graphic yesterday on this.

From the moment they are identified as girls in the womb, our entire social structure is designed to put expectations of caring on our girls and to tell them they are not good at building, science and maths.

My amazing 17 year old has hsd to fight against expectations all her life to prove to her teachers that her great maths and science grades are not a fluke and the fact that she doesn't present herself as someone who should be good at maths doesn't mean she isn't. She spent the entire first term of year 12 in a state of stress because everyone around her kept telling her that Maths and Physics are really hard subjects to take. It is only now, with a few tests under her belt where she has performed really well, that she has relaxed into study and is enjoying it and actually seeing that she has to work harder at German. This never happened to my son.. who did not do as well at these subjects as she does.

It is not about choice!!! Girls have to fight so hard to keep their place in 'male' subjects, 'male' jobs, 'male' places of work.. it is easier to turn around and find an easier path.

I am an engineer..... I left because I couldn't face constantly having to justify myself and not just get on with my job.

ChateauMargaux · 16/01/2024 19:37

Sorry...off topic rant..

But no..@Shoppingfiend ... I don't believe it's a hormone thing... girls are not supported, surrounded by other girls / women who are also choosing stem, they have few role models, they look around the classroom, the university lecture theatre, at the people they see doing these jobs and they don't feel like.they belong.

ChateauMargaux · 16/01/2024 20:39

And even if it's a biological thing or hormones, we have to find a way to change this, as long as money, share of voice and power remain in the hands of men, women continue to bear the consequences of this inequality.

If the future designers of the world in engineering and IT are predominately male, the world they design will not be fit for women. This also goes for law and politics where our society will not represent the needs of 50% of the population.

LorlieS · 16/01/2024 22:56

@TheCircusOfLife So many generalisations!!
We need to be challenging these stereotypes.
I have three kids - two are boys (16 and 13), both academically intelligent.
One is very science/technology-based, studying A-Levels in Physics, Maths x2 and Computer Science.
My ex-husband thinks he the best thing since sliced bread.
The other (13) enjoys the arts and is particularly excelling in drama. He has expressed to me his desire to become an actor.
My ex-husband has fully discouraged this, mocked his ambitions and repeatedly said that drama is for "gays and girls" and that no "real man" would even entertain the idea of a job without a decent salary. He has further added that nobody will want to marry him if he doesn't earn "enough money."
Furthermore, my now husband, who works in MH social care on a lowly wage, is labelled as a "simp" and a "thick underachieving arse-wiper."
I thank God everyday this sad excuse for a man is my ex. I am so incredibly proud of the work my husband does.
However, ex continues with his rhetoric so much so that my 13 yo says he now doesn't want to be an actor. All his enthusiasm gone. Destroyed. It breaks my heart.
My daughter (with my husband) is 3. She plays with dollies, trains and cars. Daddy keeps adding to her train set so much we have to clear.the kitchen floor!!
Some days she wants to be a nurse, other days she wants to be a mechanic. You go, girl ❤️
@TheCircusOfLife Are you married? Children?

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FarleyHatcherEsq · 16/01/2024 23:55

Jobs should reflect skills and education. Why should social workers be paid less than engineers? They're both difficult roles, which require a degree, with a huge level of responsibility attached.
It's the value judgements which the patriarchy makes about female dominated roles that they're either easy or less skilled than typically male jobs.

Shoppingfiend · 17/01/2024 07:38

Social workers are in public service not private companies like most engineers.
So our taxes are paying them and we don't want high taxes do we.

FrangipaniBlue · 17/01/2024 07:56

For example, women are generally more caring/nurturing so are more likely to choose those types of roles because they enjoy that type of work: it is no coincidence that teaching, nursing, caring, child minding etc. are all female dominated jobs.

Do people understand that a lot of this down to NURTURE not nature?

From the day they are born girls are told they should like princesses and dolls, unicorns and rainbows, playing dress up/makeup. Boys are told they should like dinosaurs and trucks and football. You only have to look at the children's clothing section of any high street shop to see this.

By the time they leave full time education girls have literally spent 70-80% of their lives being told "you are a soft, caring, gentle being".

And then people act surprised when girls want to childminders and beauticians and boys want to be scientists and builders.

C1N1C · 17/01/2024 07:57

Does anyone have any good links regarding the gender pay gap? I saw one article that essentially debunked it, saying that it is an average take-home for men vs women, but fails to take into account time off (looking after kids), the high-paying physical jobs that women typically cannot/do not want to do (oil rigs, building, sewage, etc), maternity leave etc.

The posts above have piqued my interest.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 17/01/2024 08:48

There were a handful of girls in my Chemistry at Uni.

I started uni 32 years ago and the Chemistry course had more girls than boys on (in contrast to the Physics course which was about 4 girls to 40 boys).
The company I work for now recruits for chemists and we get a steady stream of female graduates.
Because we are a small company, it only takes a couple of people to leave to skew the numbers - last year we had 1 woman and 6 men but now we have 4 women and 5 men, working in a STEM field.

TheCircusOfLife · 17/01/2024 12:05

@ChateauMargaux Of course nobody chooses to be paid less, it just so happens that more women choose occupations that do pay less. Regarding the 'same work' comment just because a man and woman have the same job title it doesn't means they should automatically earn the same. We can't assume any discrepancies in pay or promotions are merely due to sexism, there can be many factors at play such as the potential differences in experience, hours worked and level of qualification etc. For example, a man who has been doing a particular job at a company for 15 years SHOULD be paid more than a woman who has been working there for a year, and vice versa. However, the law in the UK is unequivocal about equal pay for equal work, should anyone find themselves paid less for no valid reason you can take legal action against the employer and not only have the wage benchmarked but seek compensation on grounds of sexism.

I don't agree that people are assigned a role whilst in the womb. This is a terrible victim mentality to have and not conducive to success. The expectation of girls being more caring isn't an expectation it is a biological fact that has stood true for the last 300,000 years of not only human evolution but most other species too. People will accept that men are inherently more aggressive than women (we only have to look at violent crime stats for proof) yet question whether women are more caring? Hormones are undeniably responsible for both, we can't take one to be true without acknowledging the other to also be true.

Your daughter sounds like a credit to you. Now we could talk about the possibility of girls who like science feeling intimidated to not enter STEM, but that can be linked back to the biological and behavioural differences between the sexes, in that women are generally more agreeable, less likely to engage in confrontation and are more emotionally affected by how we are perceived or think we are perceived. Whilst I wouldn't disagree that societal factors can play a role in these behaviours (to some extent), it is a chicken/egg situation. However, if you are a confident capable person there are no legal restrictions preventing women from earing the same as or MORE than their male counterparts depending on experience etc as mentioned before. Personally, I've never experienced any negativity for being female whilst working in male dominated industries. My genuine fear is with the current quota madness taking over, that my male peers will think I am a box ticked for inclusivity purposes rather than merit.

I find it interesting when the pay gap argument comes up, nobody ever complains about the lack of female representation amongst say sewage workers, yet complain about the lack of CEOs. Feminism is about women being free to make our own choices. There is a real possibility of some feminists being so radical in their endeavour to 'close the pay gap' that they undermine the fabrics of feminism altogether. The law provides equality of opportunity, it should never allow for equality of outcome, that would be to the detriment of all.

TheCircusOfLife · 17/01/2024 12:35

@LorlieS The thing is they aren't merely generalisations and stereotypes, these identified behavioural differences are backed up with extensive scientific research.

Whilst your ex has gone about that in the COMPLETELY wrong way, I can see an element of why he may have said that to your son. As parents it is our job to guide our children into achieving the best that they can be whilst still setting realistic expectations and goals. Very few people go onto become actors that are actually able to earn a living, so a back up plan is always advisable when pursuing the arts in my opinion.

Most parents want to see their children become independent, successful adults. No parent wants to witness their kids struggling in any way including financially.

Yes married for 20 years with twins at uni.

Biddie191 · 17/01/2024 14:05

@Jewishbookwork

The fact is also that many jobs which tend to be male dominated eg stem fields are much more lucrative and wealth creating than women dominated jobs.

I work in a stem field, recently the company I work for did their annual stats. Currently women make up just over 65% of the Grades 1-4, 60% of 5-6, 21% of 7, 9% of upper management. As overall there are more women than men working here (54% ; 46%) then it's portrayed as an equal opportunities company.

When you look up how long each has been in the sector it's not that in 10 years time that the 65% will all be a grade or 2 up, as many of the men in the higher grades have been in the company (and usually, the sector) a shorter amount of time. It is much harder for women to be promoted.

ChateauMargaux · 17/01/2024 16:07

Thank you @TheCircusOfLife for your considered response.

I can see that we are not quite on the same page.. but that's OK.

I do however, believe, that the evidence points towards men being paid more than women... all other things being equal. I also believe that there elements of sexism that lead to that.

I also believe that the expectations that girls should be caring in their behaviours and their career choices are at least in part due to sex based stereotypes and wealth would be more equally shared if stereotypes and sexism were not as powerful and ever present as they are.