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Feminism: chat

Cleverly

120 replies

whirlingdevonish · 24/12/2023 06:26

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67813689
I don't think I've ever been angrier at a politician. And that is saying something in this political climate. Surely the Home Secretary should go?

James Cleverly

Home Secretary James Cleverly criticised over drink spiking joke

The home secretary apologises for making an "ironic joke" at a Downing Street event, a spokesman says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67813689

OP posts:
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whirlingdevonish · 02/01/2024 09:02

Yeah right. And he expects us to believe him after those comments? Apology is great. But he can't un-say what he said. And it speaks volumes I'm afraid.

OP posts:
BIossomtoes · 02/01/2024 09:06

Brefugee · 02/01/2024 09:02

did anyone see Kathleen Stock's disappointing take on this? That it's "just a joke" and Helen Joyce agreeing with her.

Am raging (at the comments by Cleverly - the opposite of nominative determinism, surely? - and at Stock and Joyce)

Yes. I couldn’t believe what I was reading.

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2024 10:12

I read Stock. Didn't want to mention it on here as I thought it might invite a different debate and I, for one, don't want that. I thought her article fell foul a little bit of bad headline writing. But I did think it typical of her take on things woman related to be honest. I got to about line 10 of the piece before I could say 'bingo'.

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2024 10:15

I think also in this context we need to remind ourselves that marital rape has only been a crime since 1992 - and there are still many men - and sadly some women, including a few prominent 'feminists' who don't believe it's a thing, or important.

IClaudine · 02/01/2024 10:36

Does anyone have a share token for the Stock piece, please?

LinesmanMinnelli · 02/01/2024 10:52

How long until someone uses the defence in court - well I only gave a little bit and the home sec said that's ok

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2024 10:57

There's another thread about this, which is going differently on the more populated FWR board. I peeped.

IClaudine · 02/01/2024 11:13

BIossomtoes · 02/01/2024 10:48

Hopefully this will work.

I thought you would be interested in this story from The Times:
Cleverly’s ‘joke’ is a safer target than what really hurts, frightens and kills women.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/14b4b2db-057c-47ec-bce8-910c1b4f24b3

Doesn't work for me☹️

LadyWithLapdog · 02/01/2024 11:19

The link posted on page 3 of the thread I linked above still works for me.

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2024 11:20

The festive period is traditionally a time for comedy routines, which is perhaps why the home secretary thought he’d venture some jokes at a Downing Street reception in the run-up to Christmas. That very day, his own department had announced it would be designating drink-spiking as a specific offence in law — so what better occasion to try out some edgy new material about Rohypnol? Or at least that’s what some kamikaze part of James Cleverly’s brain must have been whispering when he decided to riff about “mildly” sedating his wife with the date-rape drug so that “she can never realise there are better men out there”. A few days later, on Christmas Eve, Santa brought him an embarrassing newspaper article. He and his colleagues have been facing down the fuss ever since.
How Cleverly’s routine was received in the room is unrecorded, but I confess that, had I been there, I probably would have sniggered. Sudden transgressive forays into taboos are a staple of dark humour, especially when uttered by an unexpected source playing against type. Never mind the Spanish Inquisition: no one expects the home secretary to make jokes about slipping his wife a roofie. I can see why the remarks might have raised smirks in context.

But it seems that in this sentiment I find myself almost entirely alone, and especially among feminists. Instead, to judge by the outraged responses of female politicians and charity bosses, we are supposed to act as if Cleverly had suddenly announced wife-sedation as official government policy.

Yvette Cooper called his comments “truly unbelievable”. Gina Miller said they were “beyond appalling”. Women’s Aid declared: “It is vital that spiking survivors see ministers treating the subject seriously and not downplaying the reality so many women face.” The Fawcett Society went further, calling for Cleverly’s resignation and pronouncing it “sickening” that “the senior minister in charge of keeping women safe thinks that something as terrifying as drugging women is a laughing matter”.

Let’s be honest, though. This is all confected nonsense, isn’t it? It’s not just that, had these people been genuinely worried about protecting victims from Cleverly’s remarks, they probably shouldn’t have helped broadcast them so enthusiastically in the first place. It’s also that, once again, professional feminist organisations are cranking themselves up into high dudgeon about a basically superficial issue — a joke — while judiciously ignoring much bigger harms to women’s interests that are too awkward to mention.
What are the most pressing issues facing women globally at the moment? As vividly demonstrated to the world recently by Hamas, sexualised violence as a weapon of war seems to be one of them — but, peculiarly, UK feminist organisations have had little to say about that. Israel’s treatment of impoverished, disenfranchised Palestinian women as expendable collateral in a bloody conflict started by men could be another topical issue to focus upon — but, again, far too sensitive for many right now.
Closer to home, what about the thousands of women stuck in prostitution and sexual exploitation? Or the effective destruction of single-sex prisons and rape crisis services, strong-armed into admitting males who say they are women? Or if that’s all too difficult, how about grooming gangs, or forced marriages, or religious milieus in which it’s impossible to come out as a lesbian for fear of violence and ostracism? These are all culturally sensitive issues in different ways, which means that they are the very last things a self-interested feminist leader would risk having an opinion about in public. Much better to fixate on some off-colour comments made semi-privately by a politician and ratchet up the outrage.
In reality, joking about a terrible thing doesn’t put you on a slippery slope towards doing that thing; nor does it imply approval of others doing it. That’s not how humour works. Women can joke about castrating philandering husbands without it following they would get the meat-cleaver out, given the chance. Most people grasp this difference — thank God, because otherwise everyday conversations would be a lot less fun.
Yet in the world of progressive NGOs, off-colour jokes are often treated, ludicrously, as a gateway to serious abuse. This is certainly the conceit behind the mayor of London’s recent public education campaign urging men to “say maaate to a mate” — a campaign that begins with the confident if vaguely evidenced premise that “violence against women and girls starts with words”, and goes on to insist that “sexist jokes and ‘banter’ can contribute towards a culture of abuse”. Whereas there are clearly places where such language is inappropriate — workplaces and classrooms spring to mind — Khan’s campaign expresses the heroic ambition of trying to eliminate it from every pub and locker room in the land, based on the dubious idea this would reduce violence against women specifically.
But this seems to me a bit too convenient — yet another realm where, supposedly, the solution to a complicated problem with long economic and sociocultural roots is to guilt-trip the average person into changing his vocabulary. I’m sure violent men often make sexist jokes, but it doesn’t follow that making sexist jokes is a meaningful precursor to violence in otherwise peaceable characters.
As it happens, I know plenty of grassroots campaigners concerned by the problem of male violence who are unafraid to state culturally delicate facts that better-paid feminists would rather avoid. It’s probably no coincidence that many of them are also fond of dark humour, a trait that can sustain you when you are faced every day with the worst things men can do to women. I know which kind of feminist I’d rather hang out in the pub with; but, more importantly, I also know who the more effective campaigners are. Despite modern linguistic obsessions, when it comes to sticking up for women, criticising deeds is more important than criticising words.

viques · 02/01/2024 11:36

Cleverly on R4 Today programme today. Saying how the protection of women has always been at the forefront of his political activity ( listed all the committees, meetings etc about womens safety that he has attended since he was in the sixth form debating team, I assume he had a crib sheet he had prepared earlier ) but when the presenter commented that his “concerns” only made the fact that he thought joking about date rape even more incomprehensible he didn’t seem to grasp her point. Because people like him who have built a career out of their ability to twist and wriggle their way out of situations by reason of verbal argument don’t actually understand that there are real people with real lives and real experiences behind their rhetoric and statistics.

Lottapianos · 02/01/2024 11:47

'he didn’t seem to grasp her point. Because people like him who have built a career out of their ability to twist and wriggle their way out of situations by reason of verbal argument don’t actually understand that there are real people with real lives and real experiences behind their rhetoric and statistics.'

Well said. He so clearly just does not get it, and never will. If he actually gave a shit about women, that 'joke' would not have occurred to him. I bet he's feeling pretty hard done by, because in his head, the joke was at his own expense, and was really about how his wife is way out of his league 🙄 even without the drink spiking reference, that's a weird and uncomfortable thing to be joking about

Apparently there is a line in the report that the Home Office published about how drink spiking is often seen as 'a joke' and that obviously that's a particular problem with this kind of assault. This really couldn't be much worse for Cleverly

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2024 11:51

Well., as Home Secretary , one surely can't expect him to have read the report!

IClaudine · 02/01/2024 12:08

Thanks Piggywaspushed.

So Stock thinks we should laugh off a Home Secretary making jokes about date rape drugs because women are suffering terrible harm at the hands of men?

I thought she was supposed to be a towering intellect? She comes across as Katie Hopkins with a thesaurus in that article. But I am obviously the wrong kind of feminist.

BIossomtoes · 02/01/2024 12:26

IClaudine · 02/01/2024 11:13

Doesn't work for me☹️

Sorry 🥲

LadyWithLapdog · 02/01/2024 12:34

“Katie Hopkins with a thesaurus” 😂 I’m the wrong kind of feminist as I hadn’t heard of her. I wasn’t impressed by the quality of the arguments either: women suffer worldwide so let’s let big man in charge of important stuff get away with crass jokes. Let’s snigger along a little bit to show how manly we can be as well.

Imnotadentist · 02/01/2024 13:10

IClaudine · 02/01/2024 12:08

Thanks Piggywaspushed.

So Stock thinks we should laugh off a Home Secretary making jokes about date rape drugs because women are suffering terrible harm at the hands of men?

I thought she was supposed to be a towering intellect? She comes across as Katie Hopkins with a thesaurus in that article. But I am obviously the wrong kind of feminist.

Me neither. Don’t get her point about some things shouldn’t be said in the workplace. I thought that was the bloody point- Cleverly was at work when he said those things to a work audience. He wasn’t chatting to mates in the pub.

Piggywaspushed · 02/01/2024 13:22

Imnotadentist · 02/01/2024 13:10

Me neither. Don’t get her point about some things shouldn’t be said in the workplace. I thought that was the bloody point- Cleverly was at work when he said those things to a work audience. He wasn’t chatting to mates in the pub.

I think it's a knee jerk article. I don't think she knew at all when it was said exactly, in what context, and to whom.

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